Contradictory verses


#1

Hi I have some questions…

Tobit 12:9 says: (also Sirach 3:30)

“For almsgiving DELIVERS FROM DEATH, and it will purge away EVERY SIN. Those who perform deeds of charity and of righteousness will have fulness of life”

if it purges away EVERY sin then Why did “Jesus die for our sins”?? for nothing?!?

and if it delivers from death and purges away every sin then We are saved ONLY by works not faith!! Faith is not important at all according to Tobit… ( if What tobit says is true Then St. Paul lies) Give almsgiving as much as you can and you’re saved automatically!!! it also means atheists satanists enemies of christ muslims everybody can be saved all they sould do is “almsgiving” That is all?!?

Sirach 3:3 “Whoever honors his father atones for sins”

So What about this?

Thank you…


#2

Hi, ozi80,

  1. We interpret the bible literally, not literalistically. It’s the difference between understanding “raining cats and dogs” to be “raining hard” vs. “perros and gatos are falling from el cielo”. Make sense?

  2. Proverbs 10:12 (KJV) “Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers **all **sins.” Does this mean that if we love ALL sins are covered? Can Christ do nothing for us? Obviously not. But that’s old testament, right…what about new testament? 1 Peter 8 And above all things have fervent love for one another, for * “love will cover a multitude of sins.”*. Or how about James 5:19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. Do these contradict St. Paul? Is the Bible teaching a “works alone” gospel?

  3. Catholics do NOT believe in a works alone gospel. Any understanding from either scripture or Catholic writings that you come up with that seem to indicate we do…well…you’re wrong.

  4. Dei Verbum states that the Bible is inerrant. It cannot contradict itself. Period. You should read it - it would help to solidify some things for you.

  5. Works *complete *faith. Faith without works is dead, and we are saved only by faith working through love.

God Bless,
RyanL


#3

[quote=ozi80]Hi I have some questions…

Tobit 12:9 says: (also Sirach 3:30)

“For almsgiving DELIVERS FROM DEATH, and it will purge away EVERY SIN. Those who perform deeds of charity and of righteousness will have fulness of life”

if it purges away EVERY sin then Why did “Jesus die for our sins”?? for nothing?!?

and if it delivers from death and purges away every sin then We are saved ONLY by works not faith!! Faith is not important at all according to Tobit… ( if What tobit says is true Then St. Paul lies) Give almsgiving as much as you can and you’re saved automatically!!! it also means atheists satanists enemies of christ muslims everybody can be saved all they sould do is “almsgiving” That is all?!?

Sirach 3:3 “Whoever honors his father atones for sins”

So What about this?

Thank you…
[/quote]

Good eye ozi80. Notice in the Tobit verse the word “purge.” You can avoid purgatory also by giving alms according to that verse, wouldn’t you say?

As far as the Sirach verse, it directly contradicts God in Lev 17:11. Though the Church says scripture does not contradict itself, these two verses clearly contradict other parts, as you have rightly observed.


#4

[quote=RyanL]Proverbs 10:12 (KJV) “Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers **all **sins.” Does this mean that if we love ALL sins are covered? Can Christ do nothing for us? Obviously not. But that’s old testament, right…what about new testament? 1 Peter 8 And above all things have fervent love for one another, for * “love will cover a multitude of sins.”*.
[/quote]

Those verses dealing with “love covering sins,” have to do with a Christian’s attitude. As he is forgiven by God, so the Christian, in love should overlook the wrong done to him by another, believer or unbeliever. That is also how one can save another from death, by love, and hopefully through his conduct win another to Christ. This is not speaking to God’s forgiveness of sin, but the believer’s forgiveness of those who wrong him. See also 1 Cor 13:4ff.


#5

As far as the Sirach verse, it directly contradicts God in Lev 17:11. Though the Church says scripture does not contradict itself, these two verses clearly contradict other parts, as you have rightly observed.

How does Lev. 17:11 “contradict” Sir. 3:3? There’s no contradiction. Both are right. Doing what is right according God’s Law does atone for past sins because doing God’s Law is more important than giving it lip service as in the parable of the 2 sons. One said he wouldn’t do as his father asked but did so anyway and the other said he would but did nothing. So, which was obedient and did the father’s will? Doing the Fathe’s will is an act of atonement.

Plus Sir. 3:3 implies that the sin committed was probably against the laws concerning parental honor, so it is restitution, which also atones for sin.

In Christ, the blood of the Lamb makes atonement possible, as a blood sacrifice did in the OT, but in a higher, better way–through the grace of God poured out on us because of the redemption Christ gained for us through the spilling of his blood for us.

The OT sacrifices looked forward to the NT fulfillment, which is why the faithful of the OT could be saved, for all of humanity, no matter when or where we live(d), were/are saved through Christ alone.


#6

[quote=sandusky]Good eye ozi80. Notice in the Tobit verse the word “purge.” You can avoid purgatory also by giving alms according to that verse, wouldn’t you say?

As far as the Sirach verse, it directly contradicts God in Lev 17:11. Though the Church says scripture does not contradict itself, these two verses clearly contradict other parts, as you have rightly observed.
[/quote]

Here is the Tobit passage:
8 Prayer is good with fasting and alms more than to lay up treasures of gold: 9 For alms delivereth from death, and the same is that which purgeth away sins, and maketh to find mercy and life everlasting. 10 But they that commit sin and iniquity, are enemies to their own soul.
This isnt talking about buying your way to Heaven apart from Jesus, it is more along the lines of what Jesus said:
2 Therefore when thou dost an almsdeed, sound not a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be honoured by men. Amen I say to you, they have received their reward. 3 But when thou dost alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doth. 4 That thy alms may be in secret, and thy Father who seeth in secret will repay thee.-Mt6
In both cases alms are a good deed which you will be rewarded from doing.

As for the Sirach quote I didnt know what verse you were looking at specifically but here is the first part of Ch3:
1 The sons of wisdom are the church of the just: and their generation, obedience and love. 2 Children, hear the judgment of your father, and so do that you may be saved. 3 For God hath made the father honourable to the children: and seeking the judgment of the mothers, hath confirmed it upon the children. 4 **He that loveth God, shall obtain pardon for his sins by prayer, and shall refrain himself from them, and shall be heard in the prayer of days.**5 And he that honoureth his mother is as one that layeth up a treasure. 6 He that honoureth his father shall have joy in his own children, and in the day of his prayer he shall be heard. 7 He that honoureth his father shall enjoy a long life: and he that obeyeth the father, shall be a comfort to his mother. 8 He that feareth the Lord, honoureth his parents, and will serve them as his masters that brought him into the world. 9 Honour thy father, in work and word, and all patience, 10 That a blessing may come upon thee from him, and his blessing may remain in the latter end.
I dont think you would disagree with this, especially verse 4. Anyway compare this passage to this in Deuteronomy:
16 Honour thy father and mother, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee, that thou mayst live a long time, and it may be well with thee in the land, which the Lord thy God will give thee.-Deu5


#7

[quote=Della]In Christ, the blood of the Lamb makes atonement possible, as a blood sacrifice did in the OT, but in a higher, better way–through the grace of God poured out on us because of the redemption Christ gained for us through the spilling of his blood for us.
[/quote]

Christ’s blood makes atonement possible?

It is the blood that makes atonement; it does not make atonement possible; it makes atonement. That is from Lev 17 and points to Christ, who did not make atonement possible; He made atonement.

[quote=Della]In Christ, the blood of the Lamb makes atonement possible, as a blood sacrifice did in the OT
[/quote]

You are mistaken. Read Hebrews 10. That the blood of the O.T. sacrifices of bulls and goats could take away sin is an impossiblity. The O.T. sacrifices took away neither sin, nor the guilt of sin.


#8

[quote=Catholic Dude]Here is the Tobit passage:
8 Prayer is good with fasting and alms more than to lay up treasures of gold: 9 For alms delivereth from death, and the same is that which purgeth away sins, and maketh to find mercy and life everlasting. 10 But they that commit sin and iniquity, are enemies to their own soul.
This isnt talking about buying your way to Heaven apart from Jesus, it is more along the lines of what Jesus said:
2 Therefore when thou dost an almsdeed, sound not a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be honoured by men. Amen I say to you, they have received their reward. 3 But when thou dost alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doth. 4 That thy alms may be in secret, and thy Father who seeth in secret will repay thee.-Mt6
In both cases alms are a good deed which you will be rewarded from doing.

As for the Sirach quote I didnt know what verse you were looking at specifically but here is the first part of Ch3:
1 The sons of wisdom are the church of the just: and their generation, obedience and love. 2 Children, hear the judgment of your father, and so do that you may be saved. 3 For God hath made the father honourable to the children: and seeking the judgment of the mothers, hath confirmed it upon the children. 4 **He that loveth God, shall obtain pardon for his sins by prayer, and shall refrain himself from them, and shall be heard in the prayer of days.**5 And he that honoureth his mother is as one that layeth up a treasure. 6 He that honoureth his father shall have joy in his own children, and in the day of his prayer he shall be heard. 7 He that honoureth his father shall enjoy a long life: and he that obeyeth the father, shall be a comfort to his mother. 8 He that feareth the Lord, honoureth his parents, and will serve them as his masters that brought him into the world. 9 Honour thy father, in work and word, and all patience, 10 That a blessing may come upon thee from him, and his blessing may remain in the latter end.
I dont think you would disagree with this, especially verse 4. Anyway compare this passage to this in Deuteronomy:
16 Honour thy father and mother, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee, that thou mayst live a long time, and it may be well with thee in the land, which the Lord thy God will give thee.-Deu5

[/quote]

Any way you look at it, the Tobit verse says alms giving delivers from death and purges from sin…

The second verse clearly says that one who loves God finds pardon for his sins by prayer.

Each does that within the further context that you provided.


#9

[quote=ozi80]Hi I have some questions…

Tobit 12:9 says: (also Sirach 3:30)

“For almsgiving DELIVERS FROM DEATH, and it will purge away EVERY SIN. Those who perform deeds of charity and of righteousness will have fulness of life”

if it purges away EVERY sin then Why did “Jesus die for our sins”?? for nothing?!?

and if it delivers from death and purges away every sin then We are saved ONLY by works not faith!! Faith is not important at all according to Tobit… ( if What tobit says is true Then St. Paul lies) Give almsgiving as much as you can and you’re saved automatically!!!
[/quote]

Neither salvation, nor any automatic salvation, are mentioned - you’re reading Christian ideas and concerns into a pre-Christian text.

NT books such as Hebrews & Galatians have much to say about how the OT prefigured the full Revelation in Christ - they insist that the OT was provisional, temporary, incomplete. So it can’t be treated as complete & final & fully adequate as a revelation - so we can’t assume that what it says is the full story of God’s Will for us; it is not. The story is only complete in Christ: not in the OT. No verse in the Bible is the whole of the Bible - instead of being taking one by one, they need to be taken in sections. After all, we don’t expect a passage in a political speech to be separable from the whole speech - yet we seem to expect the Bible to make sense if we separate it into tiny bits. ##

it also means atheists satanists enemies of christ muslims everybody can be saved all they sould do is “almsgiving” That is all?!?

Sirach 3:3 “Whoever honors his father atones for sins”

So What about this?

Thank you…

The book is speaking from the POV of Pharisaism in the second century BC - it can’t be expected to reflect the teaching of a Gospel which was not going to be preached for another century & a half. Tobit is older - about 350 BC

That’s a bit like finding fault with the Constitution for not discussing cloning.

That text again:

“For almsgiving DELIVERS FROM DEATH, and it will purge away EVERY SIN. Those who perform deeds of charity and of righteousness will have fulness of life”

This was written when bodily death was thought to be the end - no idea of resurrection was known at the time. The NT setting is different - some sort of resurrection was quite widely accepted, and for Christians it is a central certainty, because of Christ’s Resurrection, which is the pattern of our own.

The Gospel had not been preached, so neither had what it speaks of: salvation through Christ by the grace of God. It’s very important to notice when a pasage of the Bible was written - otherwise we will find problems where they don’t exist.

The text is being spoken by Jews - they aren’t talking about satanists, any more than they are talking about Muslims. As the text comes from Jews, certain ideas are taken for granted,ideas with which the notions of fasting and almsgiving fit; ideas with which atheists & satanists would not agree. How could a Jewish text from before Christ refer even indirectly to Christ’s enemies; or to Muslims?

Let us suppose there is a race of aliens called the Zygons, and that they attack the earth in 2200 AD - would it be fair to blame politicians in 2000 AD for doing nothing to prevent the Zygons attacking earth ? Surely not - how can they do anything about them, when they have no reason to think they exist ? The OT writers, like the NT writers, had to write from the perspective of their own times and cultures - they couldn’t be expected to anticipate the religious ideas of future centuries: any more than Moses could be expected to warn the Israelites against trusting in Egypt to save them from Nebuchadnezzar attacking Jerusalem. ##


#10

[quote=sandusky]Any way you look at it, the Tobit verse says alms giving delivers from death and purges from sin…

The second verse clearly says that one who loves God finds pardon for his sins by prayer.

Each does that within the further context that you provided.
[/quote]

Good works do deliver you from death, I dont see where the problem is. In the sense of “purges from sin” that simply means making up for a sin by doing a good deed. Alms giving is one of the many good works that one can do, also look in Acts4:
32 Now the company of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things which he possessed was his own, but they had everything in common. 33 And with great power the apostles gave their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all. 34 There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of what was sold 35 and laid it at the apostles’ feet; and distribution was made to each as any had need. 36 Thus Joseph who was surnamed by the apostles Barnabas (which means, Son of encouragement), a Levite, a native of Cyprus, 37 sold a field which belonged to him, and brought the money and laid it at the apostles’ feet.
Alms giving is right in line with blessings and building up Christians.

I dont understand your problem with the other passage.


#11

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