Conversion is not needed for salvation-- JPII?


#1

Fox news kept saying one of the radical teachings of our Holy Father, God rest his soul, was that conversion was not necessary for salvation. Is this true??? :eek:


#2

[quote=A&O]Fox news kept saying one of the radical teachings of our Holy Father, God rest his soul, was that conversion was not necessary for salvation. Is this true??? :eek:
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Do you really trust Fox News?


#3

John Paul II:

It should be repeated that, on the part of the Church and her members, dialogue, whatever form it takes (and these forms can be and are very diverse, since the very concept of dialogue has an analogical value) can never begin from an attitude of indifference to the truth. On the contrary, it must begin from a presentation of the truth, offered in a calm way, with respect for the intelligence and consciences of others. The dialogue of reconciliation can never replace or attenuate the proclamation of the truth of the Gospel, the precise goal of which is conversion from sin and communion with Christ and the Church. It must be at the service of the transmission and realization of that truth through the means left by Christ to the Church for the pastoral activity of reconciliation, namely catechesis and penance. (John Paul II, Reconciliation and Penance, 25)

What do you think?


#4

I don’t have it handy, but for heaven’s sake please read the Catechism wherein John Paul the Great is himself quoted as saying that the Holy Spirit begins by convincing us of our sin and calling us to repent and convert at every moment of our lives.


#5

Fox news kept saying one of the radical teachings of our Holy Father, God rest his soul, was that conversion was not necessary for salvation. Is this true???

Well he made Hans Urs von Balthasar a Cardinal. Conversion is not neccessary if Hell is empty.

Islam is such a good religion that St John the Baptist has been invoked to protect it. So I don’t think we need worry about the Muslims as we already know they worship the same God as us.

Protestants are our brothers and sisters as are the Orthodox Churchs and we have agreed not to convert these sects, so no worries there.

The Pope has prayed with animists, so I guess they must have a special place in Gods plans. A snake even appeared and gave them all a special sign.

Buddhists - well “His Holiness” The Deli Lama is still a Buddhist and John Paul had a special relationship with him, so I guess they must be OK.

Hindus are making a “loving, trusting flight toward God”, so I guess they are OK.

The Jews - well they are our “Elder Brothers” - and the Old Covenant still stands - So they are OK.

The only people in need of conversion are those who are puzzled by an about turn on Church teaching on other religions since 1958.


#6

[quote=John_19_59]Fox news kept saying one of the radical teachings of our Holy Father, God rest his soul, was that conversion was not necessary for salvation. Is this true???

Well he made Hans Urs von Balthasar a Cardinal. Conversion is not neccessary if Hell is empty.

Islam is such a good religion that St John the Baptist has been invoked to protect it. So I don’t think we need worry about the Muslims as we already know they worship the same God as us.

Protestants are our brothers and sisters as are the Orthodox Churchs and we have agreed not to convert these sects, so no worries there.

The Pope has prayed with animists, so I guess they must have a special place in Gods plans. A snake even appeared and gave them all a special sign.

Buddhists - well “His Holiness” The Deli Lama is still a Buddhist and John Paul had a special relationship with him, so I guess they must be OK.

Hindus are making a “loving, trusting flight toward God”, so I guess they are OK.

The Jews - well they are our “Elder Brothers” - and the Old Covenant still stands - So they are OK.

The only people in need of conversion are those who are puzzled by an about turn on Church teaching on other religions since 1958.
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Read Domine Jesu.


#7

Read Domine Jesu.


Read Lumen Gentium and the CCC.


#8

One might assume that “Conversion” means being brought totally into the Catholic Faith. On the other hand “Conversion” can mean a change of heart, repentance, a desire to implicitly live the Gospel. Unless one is certain which definition applies, I don’t think sour grapes about John Paul II s teachings is at all appropriate. Look to the log in your own eye and not the splinter in that of your brother. Cheap shots at the Pope make me want to vomit. Go p… on someone else’s grave.


#9

[quote=rwoehmke]One might assume that “Conversion” means being brought totally into the Catholic Faith. On the other hand “Conversion” can mean a change of heart, repentance, a desire to implicitly live the Gospel.
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Conversion of the heart, including becoming Catholic, is necessary.

I would not rely upon Fox News or any secular news organization to articulate Catholic doctrine.


#10

[quote=rwoehmke]One might assume that “Conversion” means being brought totally into the Catholic Faith. On the other hand “Conversion” can mean a change of heart, repentance, a desire to implicitly live the Gospel. Unless one is certain which definition applies, I don’t think sour grapes about John Paul II s teachings is at all appropriate. Look to the log in your own eye and not the splinter in that of your brother. Cheap shots at the Pope make me want to vomit. Go p… on someone else’s grave.
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I was just asking a question. Sorry. :frowning:


#11

[quote=tuopaolo]Conversion of the heart, including becoming Catholic, is necessary.

I would not rely upon Fox News or any secular news organization to articulate Catholic doctrine.
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Read CCC. We acknowledge as Christian those who are sep. from us, we acknowledge that their ecclesial communities/churches are centers of salvation, etc, we are to rec. them with respect and love as fellow Christians. If, however, one comes to see the truth of Catholicism, and fails to enter the Church or remain in Her, for such a one there is no salvation. The Catholic Church contains the fullness of Christ’s Truth, but Christ is not limited in His salvific actions to the Sacraments or to the Church. He may do as he wills.
It’s best to be in the boat, however.


#12

[quote=JKirkLVNV]Read CCC.
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I’ve read the CCC and I don’t see it stating anywhere that it is not necessary to become Catholic. There is a moral imperative to become Catholic and I am 110% sure that our beloved Holy Father never denied this. :slight_smile:

If, however, one comes to see the truth of Catholicism, and fails to enter the Church or remain in Her, for such a one there is no salvation.

Even those who don’t come to see the truth of Catholicism are in eternal peril if they are gravely negligent in seeking the truth of Catholicism or if they are culpable for other mortal sins (like adultery or homosexuality etc.)

He may do as he wills.

And His will is for everyone to be Catholic.

It’s best to be in the boat, however.

Well those who are not in the boat suffer the same fate as those who were not in Noah’s Ark.

God can save a non-Catholic by a special, extraordinary, exceptional act of mercy. But that’s not something we can rely on as it’s not something that He has promised. But we can always hope and entrust everyone to His care.

The ordinary way that God saves non-Catholics is by His making them Catholics.


#13

Hello A&O,

I would have to think that it has to do with Pope John Paul’s rewording of the Church dogma of “No Salvation outside the Church”.

The Church used to put it like this:

The Church Teaches Ex Cathedra: "The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, and heretics, and schismatics, can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire “which was prepared for the devil, and his angels,” (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this Ecclesiastical Body, that only those remaining within this unity can profit from the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and that they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, almsdeeds, and other works of Christian piety and duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church." (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441)

Pope John Paul II puts it like this:

The following is a quote of Pope John Paul II’s statement in English to those gathered in St. Peter’s square on Wednesday, December 6th, 2000, in which he briefly summarized his message of the day, “FOR US, THE KINGDOM IS GRACE”:

“Dear brothers and sisters, the theme of Our general audience during this great Jubilee year, has been the glory of the Trinity, and today we ask what we must do to ensure that the glory of the Trinity shines forth more fully in the world. In essence we are called to be converted and to believe in the Gospel. We are to accept the kingdom of God in our hearts, and to bear witness to it by word and deed. The kingdom indicates the loving presence and activity of God in the world and should be a source of serenity and confidence to our lives. The Gospel teaches us that those who live in accordance with the beatitudes: the poor in spirit; the pure in heart; those who will lovingly [endure] the sufferings of life; will enter God’s kingdom. All who seek God with a sincere heart, including those who do not know Christ and His Church, contribute under the influence of grace, to the building of this kingdom. In the Lord’s prayer we say ‘Thy kingdom come’. May this be the hope that sustains us and inspires our Christian life and world.”

We confess with the Apostle Paul “that there is salvation in no other name” (Acts 4:12). The “Dominus Iesus” declaration, in the wake of Vatican II, shows that with this the salvation of non-Christians is not denied, but explains its ultimate source in Christ, in whom God and man are united. God gives light to all in a way appropriate to their interior and environmental situation, granting them saving grace through ways known to him (see “Dominus Iesus,” VI, 20-21). The document clarifies the essential Christian elements, which do not obstruct the dialogue, but show its basis, because a dialogue without foundations would be destined to degenerate into empty verbosity.

Normally, “it will be in the sincere practice of what is good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their own conscience that the members of other religions respond positively to God’s invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ, even while they do not recognize or acknowledge him as their Saviour (cf. Ad gentes, nn. 3, 9, 11)” (Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue – Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples,

Peace in Christ,

Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com


#14

[quote=tuopaolo]I’ve read the CCC and I don’t see it stating anywhere that it is not necessary to become Catholic. There is a moral imperative to become Catholic and I am 110% sure that our beloved Holy Father never denied this. :slight_smile:

I agree with you. A “moral imperative” is different from “absolutely necessary,” however. You cannot read the Catechism put forth by our beloved Holy Father and say that Protestants, being Protestants, cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven, at least not with the Catechism’s support. And, yes, I’ve read 846-848 under "Outside the Church There is No Salvation."

Even those who don’t come to see the truth of Catholicism are in eternal peril if they are gravely negligent in seeking the truth of Catholicism or if they are culpable for other mortal sins (like adultery or homosexuality etc.)

I agree about the mortal sin part. I would also agree that I do not see how a person who sincerely seeks the will of God could fail to enter the Catholic Church, but I know it happens, as I’m the only Catholic in a family where there are many sincere followers of Christ. I’ve no intention in consigning them, the living or the dead, to Hell. Nor do I read anything in the Catechism that does.

And His will is for everyone to be Catholic.
*** I agree.***

Well those who are not in the boat suffer the same fate as those who were not in Noah’s Ark.

Some are in the boat whether they will or nil. The Catechism teaches that some (ie, other Christians, our serperated brethren, are in “certain, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.” This follows the section where is described all those in formal union with the Catholic Church and is before the section dealing with Non-Christians. I haven’t time to type the whole section from “Wounds to Unity,” but see sections 818-819.

God can save a non-Catholic by a special, extraordinary, exceptional act of mercy.*** All of His acts of mercy are special, extraordinary, and exceptional, and I think He regularly, with extraordinary regularity in fact, shows it to those not formally united to our Holy Mother Church, who are sincere in conversion as far as they understand it, charity, and following Christ as far as they understand that, and who do not die in a state of mortal sin. ***

But that’s not something we can rely on as it’s not something that He has promised. But we can always hope and entrust everyone to His care.

***God’s mercy most assuredly can be relied on, it simply cannot be presumed upon. “Reliance” must surely be encompassed in the virtues of “faith” and “hope.” Thus, those asking for the mercy of Christ will surely rec. it. ***

The ordinary way that God saves non-Catholics is by His making them Catholics (emphasis mine). *** I don’t disagree with that.***
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#15

Actually, John Paul II put it like this, quoting from St. Thomas Aquinas:

John Paul II, Redemptionis Sacramentum, 169:

the vice of falsehood is perpetrated by anyone who offers worship to God on behalf of the Church in a manner contrary to that which is established by the Church with divine authority, and to which the Church is accustomed [St Thomas Aquinas, *Summa Theol.,

II, 2, q. 93, a. 1.]”


#16

[quote=itsjustdave1988]Actually, John Paul II put it like this, quoting from St. Thomas Aquinas:

John Paul II, Redemptionis Sacramentum, 169:
[/quote]

Wouldn’t this apply more to our own priests who dink around with the canon and rubrics?


#17

I am amazed by Catholics who claim that the church has taught falsehood from the chair of Peter. If that has happened, how can the promises of the Holy Spirit to lead us to all truth be right?

Better jump ship now, because if the Holy Spirit is no longer leading His Church, it is not His Church. Better become anything not Christian.


#18

If the Catholic Church is the one, true Church that Christ founded (and it is), then how can we go about ignoring people on the wrong paths such as Islam, Hinduism, New Age/Occult, and other false religions without doing everything we can to convert them to our faith and see that they find the truth?


#19

Watching Fox News try to explain John Paul’s theology is like watching a monkey try to work a cake mixer…


#20

[quote=MariaG]I am amazed by Catholics who claim that the church has taught falsehood from the chair of Peter. If that has happened, how can the promises of the Holy Spirit to lead us to all truth be right?

Better jump ship now, because if the Holy Spirit is no longer leading His Church, it is not His Church. Better become anything not Christian.
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Hello MariaG,

Could you quote scriptures you are reffering to, “promises of the Holy Spirit to lead us to all truth”.

God was with Moses when Moses brought down the ten commandments from Mt. Sini. King David and Isaiah give us some of the greatest prophesies about Jesus. Certianly the Holy Spirit was guiding the Israelite Church. Then those Israelite leaders who sat in Moses seat as successors, intentionally falsely condemned Jesus, their Saviour, to death. OOOOps!!!

Would the Holy Spirit stop a free willed Pope from pulling out his shotgun and blasting at Jesus at the second coming? Would the Holy Spirit stop a free willed Pope from lying and bringing up false testimony against Jesus as the God authorized Jewish leaders did? I think Catholic leaders have just as much free will to do evil as their counterparts the Jewish leaders who condemned Jesus to death.

Jewish leaders had the same authority from God as the Pope does. The Jewish religion had many gifts from the Holy Spirit guiding God’s people as we see in the scriptures of Moses and King David. Still, as shown to us by Jesus, the Jewish leaders, successors sitting in Moses seat, taught many evil things and did many evil things. Pre-ressurected Jesus tells His followers that they must obey the present God authorized Moses successors, but that the present successors are evil. There have been Popes who have done evil just as there were Moses successors who have done evil. God’s authority in men unites His Church on earth. God’s authority in men does not relinquish their free will capability to do evil.

**NIV MAT 23:2 **“The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.” NAB MAT 26:57

Those who had apprehended Jesus led him off to Caiaphas the high Priest, where the scribes and elders were convened. Peter kept following him at a distance as far as the high priest’s residence. Going inside, he sat down with the guards to see the outcome. The chief priests, with the whole Sanhedrin, were busy trying to obtain false testimony against Jesus so that they might put him to death

…At this the high priest tore his robes: “He has blaphemed! What furthur need have we of witnesses? Remember, you heard the blsphemy. What is your verdict?” **They answered, “He deserves death!”. **

Peace in Christ,

Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com


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