Conversion to Mormonism?

You have no idea about the facts of the Galileo Affair. But we still live in those time because then like now you have to prove your case. Mormonism fails in its attempt to prove it is a restored Church of Jesus Christ. That is why you ignore the posts which require you to do so. Who was the prophet and leader of Christianity in 70AD?

You are right, we should always prepare ourselves with an understanding of what we believe and why we believe it.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

I don’t think anyone is dismissing as anti-scholarly. Coming from Mormonism I studied FAIR a lot and found that they pick and choose to fit their argument. One historical figure is quoted when supporting Mormonism but is dismissed as unreliable when contradicting. There really isn’t anything scholarly about what they do.

Janderich, mtolympus, TOmNossor, NeuroTypical, Alma147…they all do. They cherry pick the easy parts of posts to respond. The rest they ignore because they have no answer.

True, but that is the kind of shoddy scholarship we, as Christians, should challenge. We need to be prepared to counter that sort of shoddy scholarship.

The best way to start to prepare is to study the Catechism of the Catholic Church and look up all of the many bible passages and other texts that it references. I have found it a wealth of wisdom and historical evidence for the true Church.

Mormons are strong on “testimony” but weak on the historical and logical basis to support such a testimony. A thorough knowledge of Catholic history is a formidable weapon in defending The Truth, who is Jesus Christ.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

Here is an article on the subject, but there are many others and even books.Like I said…you don’t go far enough on your research.

This article discusses the following:

Initiation
The Handclasp
Secret Words
Prayer Circle
Passing the Angels
Admitted into God’s Presence

fairmormon.org/perspectives/fair-conferences/1999-fair-conference/1999-early-christian-and-jewish-rituals-related-to-temple-practices

I don’t trust FAIR, I’ve seen them rearrange a paragraph making it state the opposite of what the quoted material said. I won’t read FAIR unless I have a lot of time to actually look up their quotes and read them in context. Often I find that if I look up what is quoted much is lost in the truncation. For me FAIR is questionable until proven otherwise.

How can the Catholic Church claim infallibility when it officially condemned Galileo for heresy when he declared that the earth revolves around the sun? Add to this the fact that Galileo was cruelly imprisoned and forced to recant under the pains of torture. Modern science now shows that Galileo was right and the “infallible” pope was wrong.

Is this enough evidence of Catholic Church persecution of Galileo?

law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/galileo/galileoaccount.html

Are these scriptures enough evidence of the Apostasy

lds.org/scriptures/tg/apostasy-of-the-early-christian-church?lang=eng

I will give you a little more on the apostasy. You may not accept, but don’t tell us that we don’t enough scriptural basis and history for the apostasy.

boap.org/LDS/Apostasy.pt1.html

The Early Fathers confirming the apostasy

rsc.byu.edu/archived/apostolic-fathers-witnesses-early-christian-apostasy

So…For you or others to say that Mormons don’t have basis to believe in the apostasy of the early church of Christ is not intellectual honesty. I could produce much more material supporting the apostasy…but, the question is, are you really interested in investigating the matter?

I don’t ignore the posts…I respond as time permits.

You don’t know the facts of the Galileo Affair. You don’t know the teachings of the Catholic Church. And you didn’t answer my question. Who was the Christian prophet leader in 70AD?

What I find frustrating though is they fail to acknowledge the obvious contradiction. Fact is, Brigham Young taught Adam-God and modern prophets disavowed his teaching. Isn’t it logical to assume BY was teaching under the direction of the Holy Ghost, or that the Holy Ghost would have guided him away from that teaching given his prophetic calling? He would have been misleading members of his generation. This doesn’t require scholarship, just common sense. They don’t acknowledge it…but just shrug their shoulders and say that it was in the past. Or in Alm147’s case, both were correct. That’s insanity to me.

Yes, you ignored the posts that showed there was never a Former Day Saint Church. It was an invention of Joseph Smith

This is such a common response…not enough time. Fine, assuming the Catholic Church is false, do you confirm that Brigham Young taught that Adam was God? Yes or no, that’s all I’m looking for.

Have you just not bothered to read what has been said here? The church is infallible when it comes to the faith. Not nuclear fusion, or the stock market, or who you should marry. So you won’t see the Catholic Church teaching that Adam is God oh wait a minute that’s wrong he’s not God, sorry about that.

All the links you have posted on the so called apostasy are nothing more than out of context quotes that for some reason (particularly in the first lds.org link, which is nothing but a string of bible snippets) LDS think support their interpretation. For LDS to say that Catholics have to interpret this quote mining of scripture as believable support for an apostasy of the entire church is ludicrous nor is it intellectual honesty. It’s just like I said about FAIR nothing you read can be accepted unless you go to original source and read the material in full.

lol…I said IN THE BIBLE…not yet another cut and paste from a Mormon. I meant fact, not fiction.

no…you cut and paste as time permits and ignore the difficult points that you KNOW disprove your church

I was in a hurry last night so I thought I would give a more complete response.

Your use of the word infallible in regard to the Pope shows you have no understanding of the Catholic Doctrine of Papal infallibility. This is just another example that you had no understanding of Christianity which you turned your back on.

The above and below:

Show that you don’t understand the history of science or the facts surrounding the Galileo Affair.

No, it is not. There have been books written about the Galileo Affair and I’ve read a few. It is one of my favorite points of history.

Like I told you before Mormonism is based on anti-Catholicism and you have shown it here.

Yes, I investigated it a lot. I’ve already spent a great deal of time with Mormons about their ‘proof’ of a Great Apostasy. But there are two parts to the Mormon fantasy:

  1. There was a Great Apostasy
  2. There was a “Former-Day Saint Church” that committed the Apostasy

The first part boils down to Joseph Smith inventing a bunch of beliefs and practices which are different from the Catholic Church. Joseph Smith is right and the Catholic Church is wrong so there was an apostasy. Which is no proof at all.

The second part is what I have been challenging you to prove. If you can prove the second part, the first part falls into place. But you are not able to show from history and science that there ever was a Mormon Church to restore. There never was a church that believed and practices as the Mormons do.

You ignored the above post. It strikes at the heart of why Mormonism is false and Joseph Smith is a false prophet.

You ignored the below post twice because you can’t prove the unique beliefs and practices of Mormonism existed before Joseph Smith.

But none of it says anything about LDS temple rituals so it’s useless in showing that your temple rituals have anything with Jewish or gnostic rituals.

Yes, I have read these articles and own some of the books on the temple (including Matthew Brown’s The Gate of Heaven). Firstly, it is telling that the author of the above article references Gnostic writings, and not Jewish or Christian ancient writings. Secondly, I have always found the “handclasp” evidence to be weak for a number of reasons. Firstly, all of the references only refer to someone being taken by the right hand (which makes sense, since the use of the right hand is practically universal in all religions around the world, with the left hand sometimes being viewed as evil). Secondly, none of these references are talking about the specific LDS practice of giving “tokens”, i.e. a specific type of handshake with specific positioning of fingers. The LDS tokens find clear borrowing from Freemasonry (apparently some are exactly the same). Thus, this evidence is not evidence. What would be more interesting is if the ancient Jews were giving tokens in the ancient Temple(s). I have never seen any such evidence.

I also found it telling that the author relied on references to gnostic writings. When I was at BYU, I was taught in one of my New Testament religion classes taught by a professor of ancient scripture that the apostasy was the result of gnosticism entering and taking over the early Christian church and that the Council of Nicea was the culmination of the gnostic apostasy. It makes it all the more ironic to me that FAIR is citing gnostic writings as evidence of Former-Day Saint temple rituals when at least one BYU ancient scripture professor taught that it was gnosticism that took the Former-Day Saint church into apostasy.

So, evanfaust, which is it? Is gnosticism the true Former-Day Saint church or did it cause the Former-Day Saint church to become apostate?

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