Coptic Pope Kyrillos VI validates Orthodoxy?


#1

I was wondering about how anyone could be anything but Catholic from reading the biography and writings of St. Padre Pio. Then I came across a Coptic Mystic who lived at the same time and had the same kinds of spiritual graces. His name was Pope Kyrillos VI and was actually the patriarch of Alexandria. He could read souls, bilocate, and heal just as Padre Pio did. My confusion is this: How could someone so intimately connected with God be anything but Roman Catholic? Wouldn’t Jesus or Mary indicate something of this to Kyrillos in his visions, locutions, etc about the neccesity of being in union with Rome? Do you get what I’m saying?


#2

The Copts, and the other Oriental Orthodox (like the Eastern Orthodox) are 100% Apostalic, meaning they can trace their lineage directly back to the Apostles. They have the real Sacraments, and they have kept to the true Faith in all ways except unity with the Petrine Office. The Catholic Church recognizes them as being true Apostalic Churches, just not having perfect union with the Apostalic See of Peter.

Incidently, this is why reunion with the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox is such a huge priority for the Catholic Church, and why Eastern and Oriental Orthodox are allowed to receive certain Sacraments in Catholic Churches under certain circumstances, and Catholics are allowed to do the same in theirs in some circumstances (at least by our rules, as they have their own regulations on the matter).

The Orthodox are not the same kind of seperation from the Catholic Church as the Protestants are, and they have a long tradition of real miracles and saints. Just because their Apostalic origins are valid, and they possess very real and tangible Grace, however, does not indicate that they are “the true Church”, only that they uphold the True Faith, like ourselves.

Peace and God bless!


#3

There have been gifts of the Holy Spirit evident in Protestant communities, as well. That doesn’t change the fact that the Catholic Church is the Church established by Christ, and the one, true Church. Thankfully, God is gracious, and the Holy Spirit works in Christians in other communities.

Also, why would God have told Kyrillos VI that he should become a Catholic? This is something that he should have known on his own, not something that he needed a special revelation to figure out. I’m sure God had reasons for not pointing it out to him.


#4

[quote=Ghosty]The Copts, and the other Oriental Orthodox (like the Eastern Orthodox) are 100% Apostalic, meaning they can trace their lineage directly back to the Apostles. They have the real Sacraments, and they have kept to the true Faith in all ways except unity with the Petrine Office. The Catholic Church recognizes them as being true Apostalic Churches, just not having perfect union with the Apostalic See of Peter.

Incidently, this is why reunion with the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox is such a huge priority for the Catholic Church, and why Eastern and Oriental Orthodox are allowed to receive certain Sacraments in Catholic Churches under certain circumstances, and Catholics are allowed to do the same in theirs in some circumstances (at least by our rules, as they have their own regulations on the matter).

The Orthodox are not the same kind of seperation from the Catholic Church as the Protestants are, and they have a long tradition of real miracles and saints. Just because their Apostalic origins are valid, and they possess very real and tangible Grace, however, does not indicate that they are “the true Church”, only that they uphold the True Faith, like ourselves.

Peace and God bless!
[/quote]

That is false, the Copts are monothelites meaning that they believe Christ had one nature that was both human and devine. The orthodox view is that there are two seperate natures, one human and the other divine.


#5

The gift of miracles is not necessarily confined to the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church:
49John answered, “Master, we saw a man casting out demons in your name, and we forbade him, because he does not follow with us.” 50But Jesus said to him, “Do not forbid him; for he that is not against you is for you.” (Luke 9:49-50)
The Spirit gives such extraordinary gifts to whomever He wills. Although extraordinary gifts are sometimes given to holy people, their presence does not guarantee the recipient’s personal sanctity nor the veracity of the recipient’s religion. Remember that the pagan Balaam had the gift of prophecy and his donkey had the gift of tongues. :wink:


#6

[quote=Todd Easton]49John answered, “Master, we saw a man casting out demons in your name, and we forbade him, because he does not follow with us.” 50But Jesus said to him, “Do not forbid him; for he that is not against you is for you.” (Luke 9:49-50)

[/quote]

Would this also apply to non-Christians who perform miraculous deeds?


#7

[quote=Ahimsa]Would this also apply to non-Christians who perform miraculous deeds?
[/quote]

I think so. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says:
799. Whether extraordinary or simple and humble, charisms are graces of the Holy Spirit which directly or indirectly benefit the Church, ordered as they are to her building up, to the good of men, and to the needs of the world.


#8

[quote=Todd Easton]I think so. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says: 799. Whether extraordinary or simple and humble, charisms are graces of the Holy Spirit which directly or indirectly benefit the Church, ordered as they are to her building up, to the good of men, and to the needs of the world.

[/quote]

Wunderbar!:smiley:


#9

[quote=jimmy]That is false, the Copts are monothelites meaning that they believe Christ had one nature that was both human and devine. The orthodox view is that there are two seperate natures, one human and the other divine.
[/quote]

No, they’re not, and they never were. It was a misunderstanding of language. Read this and this. The second one explains what they meant by “one nature”; you’ll see it is entirely orthodox.

Peace and God bless!


#10

[quote=Ghosty]No, they’re not, and they never were. It was a misunderstanding of language. Read this and this. The second one explains what they meant by “one nature”; you’ll see it is entirely orthodox.

Peace and God bless!
[/quote]

Yes, and it’s mostly jurisdictional issues that prevent reunion with Rome (ie surrender their autonomy).

I have wondered though, if the Coptic Church were to return, who would get to be Patriarch of Alexandria, Cardinal Ghattas or Pope Shenouba?


#11

axolotl: There’s no set rule on who would be Patriarch, but there are some ideas. One is that the Catholic counterpart would be absorbed into the Orthodox, while another is that one would simply retire, the remaining one being the acting Patriarch.

We won’t know except on a case-by-case basis when it does happen.

There are more issues than purely jurisdictional, however, such as how the later Councils and developments would be accepted by the Copts, since they do not accept Chalcedon or the ones afterwards. And of course there’s the issue of Petrine Primacy and how it functions.

Peace and God bless!


#12

Pope Kyrillos VI (Cyril) is an amazing Saint.

Here is a lot of info on him as well as his biography. Please look at it.

popekirillos.net/EN/history.php

He was incredibly humble and always willing to help and speak with anyone who approached him.

As a Pope he performed over 12000 liturgies! Even on his death bed he had a speaker set up in his bedroom so he would miss performing a liturgy.

http://www.coptichymns.net/userpics/10091/Pope%20Kirollos.jpg

Here, this man is looking at a painting of Pope Kyrillos VI, and lo and behold after the picture was developed you can see that Pope Kyrillos actually appeared behind him!!!

There are over 18 volumes of his documented miracles.
stmina-monastery.org/miracles.htm This site here has several of those volumes of his miracles.

Please feel free to ask questions.

God Bless,
Elizabeth


#13

I think it’s absolutely amazing the graces Pope Kyrillos recieved from God. Anyone know any good books on the man? Did he ever experience any apparitions or locutions?


#14

This kind of relates to my very first post on these forums, regarding the apparitions of Mary, perhaps the most compelling publicly accessible evidence of anything holy and supernatural, appearing for years on the roofs of Coptic, not Catholic churches…

For a short while, I was even questioning things like “Why do we do the rosary – are we completely missing the boat?”

But in the end, when I think of people like Padre Pio, as mentioned, or John Paul II, or hundreds and hundreds of other wise and humble people who devoted their entire lives thinking of the same things that I am, sometimes dying for their convictions, and who all in the end accepted the same set of beliefs, I can’t help but think that they can’t all be wrong…


#15

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