Could Islam and Christianity both be right?


#1

Now of course theologically they can’t both be right as the Divinity of Jesus is believed by Catholics and not Muslims.

But in terms of where the soul ends up is it possible they are both correct?

I watched a show, I can’t remember it was on the discovery channel about Islam and it stated that in Islam Heaven is a place of happiness BUT you are NOT in God’s presence. In other words a Muslims ultimate goal is never the Beatific Vision. (Muslims correct me if I’m wrong here)

Christ said, no man comes to the Father except through Me. So as Christians we believe Heaven as we think of it is closed to Muslims or anyone who has no faith in Christ as mankinds savior.

Is it possible that faithful Catholics especially the Saints who end up with God the Father and Jesus in Heaven and just Muslims who do not end up seeing the Beatific Vision, but end up in almost a Limbus Patrum, are both getting what each religion teaches?


#2

Right. So you have two possibilities after death, heaven or hell. Or, if you are Catholic, a temporary waystay in purgatory on the way to heaven.


#3

Whose to say what hell is definitively? Or if there are varying degrees of punishment? Since the soul is seperated from the body I tend to not think hell a literal burning since we have no flesh to burn until the resurrection. Couldn’t hell or sheol for Christians be eternal seperation from God’s presence? (isn’t that what in essence Muslim Heaven is?) In other words no Beatific Vision is hell? Could the Muslim Heaven be the Christians hell so to speak?


#4

What’s the description used by Christ? A lake of fire for eternity? Doesn’t sound too good to me.


#5

What about limbo?

Edwin


#6

There’s a Catholic theologian–Joseph DiNoia, I think–who has made a similar suggestion. And a Baptist theologian whose name I don’t remember off hand has come to somewhat similar views. I’m not sure about this idea, but it’s intriguing and fits the way Dante uses the notion of Limbo (admittedly this is somewhat of a stretch of the more normal division between the “limbus patrum” and “limbus infantium”).

Edwin


#7

Grace and Peace Saint_Michael,

Muslim Heaven is honestly a more Semitic understanding of ‘Paradise’ articulated through the classic ‘human’ understanding of an eternity of physical ease and sensual pleasure.

Honestly there is nothing particularly wrong with the Muslim articulation of ‘Paradise’ except for the fact that it was never updated or evolved to the nation of ‘Union with God’. Of course many Sufis would have a strong argument on this point.

Pax


#8

For the righteous before Christ or for unbaptised babies?

I think that when Christ descended to the dead he raised the righteous who abided in “limbo” or “hades” or “hell”. At that time, they would have believed in Him (being righteous) and gone to heaven. Unbaptised babies are probably in heaven, although some I believe argue that it depends on the faith of their parents.


#9

Jesus spoke of the lake of fire for the wicked, but no one sees the Father except through him. It is possible I would assume that the faithful just Muslims or Hindu’s may receive a reward, just it is not to dwell in God’s presence. And the lake of fire is reserved for the wicked like Hitler, Nero, Stalin etc…

I think there’s probably a grey area somewhere. Now none of this I expect to be taught in CCD classes because frankly it isn’t a matter for salvation, it’s just conjecture on my part.


#10

Traditionally it’s for both. Dante quite reasonably speculated that it might include not only the Hebrews but virtuous pagans as well. I would speculate further that it’s possible that those who died after Christ’s coming but did not wilfully reject Him also went to limbo.

I think that when Christ descended to the dead he raised the righteous who abided in “limbo” or “hades” or “hell”. At that time, they would have believed in Him (being righteous) and gone to heaven.

Certainly this is true of the ancient Hebrews. I think it may be true of others as well. But I’m open to the possibility that some might still go to limbo. I don’t see how we can know for sure.

Edwin


#11

I think the correct phrase for an eternity deprived of God’s presence is “hell”. So I don’t think both can be right. Sorry no houris for anybody.


#12

But by that argument even paradise could be hell!

Or are you saying that without the Beatific Vision, any afterlife will be miserable? Is that just the nature of the Eschaton–that all illusions vanish and God is known either as joy or as torment? I’m inclined to think that myself, but if true it’s obviously not true of every post-mortem form of existence, since the limbus patrum was not a place of torment. Perhaps it’s true after the Resurrection, or more likely after death and hades are cast into the lake of fire at the Eschaton.

Edwin


#13

First thing we need to do is get away from the thinking that all Hell is, is separation from God. Because it is that a so much more, we have to remember it doesn’t matter what you and I think, it’s what the Church teaches that matters and the Church teaches that Hell is for real.

Matthew 25; 41, 46 ‘Depart from me you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels, and these, will go off to eternal punishment. Matthew 18;9 speaks of the fire of hell. Matt 5:22 also talks of the fires of hell, Luke 16: 23 talk about being in torment while in hell,
James 3:6 talks of a hell fire. Ignatius of Antioch speaks of an unquenchable fire in his Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110]). Justin Martyr taught that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire. First Apology 21 [A.D. 151]). Hippolytus teaches that those who do not repent have a unquenchable and unending fire awaiting them, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them" (Against the Greeks 3 [A.D. 212]). So where does this come from all this talk about hell just being another room where you’re separated from God? Probably a misunderstanding of the Catechism, but when it’s read in context, it explains it beautifully.
CCC 1034 Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna,” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost, Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire, and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire! 1035
The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire”. The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs. When read in context we see that the worst thing is separation from God. Meaning to be separated from God is worst then the eternal fire and the punishments, and all the torment that hell can muster up. So please keep in mind that all these things will happen in Hell. Hell is not a pretty room where people sit around wishing they were next to God and being sad that they are not. It’s a place where your flesh is being burned off your bones and your being tormented, a place where demons are ripping at your flesh and your being continually punished, and on top of that your separated from the one being that can give you comfort, and it is by your doing that you’re here, maximize all of that and then lets talk about being separated from God.

May Almighty God grant us the grace and wisdom to stay in his Grace

MJ


#14

I would like to stress contrasts between Christianity and Islam before similarities with regard to Heaven and Hell.
According to the Quran, every human soul will go to Hell (righteous believers as well as wicked infidels), where the ones deserving to go to Paradise will be separated from those destined to suffer eternally in flaming fires:

Maryam [70] And certainly We know best those who are most worthy of being burned therein. [71] Not one of you but will pass over it: this is, with thy Lord, a Decree which must be accomplished. [72] But We shall save those who guarded against evil, and We shall leave the wrong-doers therein, (humbled) to their knees.

In many verses of the Islamic scripture, the whole human race is said to go before Allah, the eternal judge, on the day of judgment. However, it is not clearly stated in the Quran if the ones going to Paradise will live with Allah:

**An-Naml **[87] And the Day that the Trumpet will be sounded, then will be smitten with terror those who are in the heavens, and those who are on earth, except such as Allah will please (to exempt): and all shall come to His (Presence) as beings conscious of their lowliness.

The idea that righteous believers will see God on the day of resurrection is present in the Quran even though the sense of these verses has long been disputed with no consensus:

**Al-Qiyamet **[22] Some faces, that Day, will beam (in brightness and beauty); [23] Looking towards their Lord; [24] And some faces, that Day, will be sad and dismal, [25] In the thought that some backbreaking calamity was about to be inflicted on them.

The major contrast between the Biblical and Islamic Paradise is that the latter promises to include virgins for the joy of male believers :

**Ar-Rahman **[56] In them will be (Maidens), chaste, restraining their glances, whom no man or Jinn before them has touched; [57] Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
[58] Like unto rubies and coral.

**Al-Waqi’a **[35] We have created (their Companions) of special creation, [36] And made them virgin - pure (and undefiled) - [37] Beloved (by nature), equal in age, [38] For the Companions of the Right Hand.

**Ad-Dukhan **[52] Among Gardens and Springs; [53] Dressed in fine silk and in rich brocade, they will face each other; [54] Moreover, We shall join them to Companions with beautiful, big, and lustrous eyes.


#15

Hello,

In Islam the greatest reward for believers in heaven is to look at Gods face. This is the greatest reward. not the Only reward.

Hell is a real place. Not just the separation from God.

Angelos, you were never a muslim. Just another christian arab who is trying to impress westerner christians that he was a muslim just because he knows arabic.

Every single muslim knows that the interpretation for the verse you quoted is not in all honesty what you are trying to make people believe.

Every body Pass above hell. NOT ENTER hell!! Even the ones who fall into hell from the bridge are not necessarily dommed to hell. If they are not idolaters they wont reside forever in hell , but will be punished according to their sins. And after that they will enter heaven.

hope that clarifies a bit.

Angelos, quit the act.

salam


#16

It looks as if Islam has taken the Christian text (New Testament) and copied some and then added some of its own. Mohammed had an imperfect knowledge of Christianity and Judaism. It seems to me that he took what he like from the two and then added some of his own idea’s and established a “new” religion. Our Calendar starts with the Birth of Christ, theirs starts with the year Mohammed left Mecca for Almandine, that’s why there is 617 years between the two. We have a Judgment they have a Judgment. They are a lot of similarities but you’ll have that when you borrow Ideas. So could they both be right? Only one was formed by God. Catholicism is the fulfillment of Judaism, the only time Islam could be right about Heaven and Hell is when it agrees with Catholicism. That is the only way for both to be right. I know this may sound harsh and that is not my intent, but I believe truth should be seen for what it is. To cover up the truth just to get along does but side’s injustice. I believe there is enough injustice in the world, those of us that believe in God, should not be added to it.
May His wonderful Grace be with us all


#17

That is what I am saying. The Beautific Vision is heaven. Without it that is hell.

I expected the attack on angelos. Muslims react violently to apostates. The “nice” Muslim suddenly becomes dangerous.


#18

Cestusdei, what danger are you talking about. In all honesty i would be more than happy if he keeps claiming that he was a muslim and displays the ‘‘marvelous’’ amount of knowledge that he has. You can copy past all sort of this stuff from any Islam bashing site.

Angelos, go on dude, make your supporters proud of your great findings!

Cestusdei, please also stay the course. with your never ending thirst for any islam bashing incident shows what you really can give to muslim people. Your furious attacks really is a sign of weekness of your religious arguments not strength.

its sad that this forum has ended up to be a place where many people just tell each other what they want to know instead of what is the truth is.

ofcourse there are some posters here whom i totally have full respect and admiration for and they are devout catholcis.

btw…and yes i am a nice guy. Stop demonizing me because i am muslim!

Definetly definetly this all comes from teh same source of thinking that created the Holocaust .

May God guide us all

meedo


#19

Meedo,

Your response to angelos is just like the response of some of the Catholics to pro. Why can’t both sides accept the obvious fact that some people choose to convert in both directions? Also, not everyone who is a Catholic or a Muslim is well catechized in their faith. Pro doesn’t seem to understand Christian thinking very well, but that doesn’t mean he never was one. Same with this guy.

Edwin


#20

Absolutely correct.

Except for my understanding of Christian thinking, of course. I don’t know what your background is, but mine is Catholic. From a Catholic university with studies in Catholic history and philosophy, no less. If you want to question my understanding of Christianity, there are threads for that…but instead of debating, you seem to get frustrated and quit the discussion.

If you disagree with my characterizations, I welcome debate. But if we reduce ourselves to claiming that only misinformed people convert, we’re doing just as much disservice to our fellows as those who call all converts liars.

Well-informed, fully understanding people do convert, and they often do it for valid reasons.


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