Could it be true? The Quran is not anti-Trinitarian?

See the following reference for more details:
btdnetwork.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Historical-Solutions-to-Problem-Texts-C-Jonn-Block.pdf

The long and the short of it is that the paper concludes that the Quran does not criticize the Holy Trinity!

Q4:171 and 5:73 instruct the hearer not to say “three,” but according to ibn Hisham (“official” biographer of Muhammad), those verses were spoken at the occasion of a visit to meet with Muhammad in Yathrib/Medinah by the bishop of Najran, Abu Haritha b. Alqama in 631.

In 563, Jacob Baradaeus – head of the Ghassanid church of miaphysite Christians – condemned the doctrine of “tritheism” that was widespread among Arab Christian clergy. This heretical doctrine of tritheism was originated by John Philoponus, who died in 565. It was a monophysitic movement that claimed that the trinity was in fact three gods, not one. Baradaeus had consecrated two monks, Conon of Tarsus and Eugenius of Seleucia. When they left Baradaeus, they went into Arabia, preaching tritheism based on the teachings of John Philoponus.

The Arabic word for Trinity (“al thaluth”) was in widespread use, and would have been known to Muhammad’s learned uncle, Waraqa ibn Nawfal (who stayed Christian and whom Muhammad is said to defend from condemnation). Yet nowhere in the Quran does that term appear.

It would seem that later Muslims got the teachings of the Quran wrong!

Given that the Koran does condemn the worship of Christ as Son of God, and specifically excludes Christians (generally) as monotheists, I’m not sure a very compelling argument could be made that way.

Even if you could, the fact is that all of Islam in existence today denies the Trinity, making it completely incompatible with Christianity, and even if they could somehow be made to recognize the doctrine there are other troublesome Islamic doctrines which come straight from the Koran.

Muslims will say… Ibn Hisham who…??

There was a claimed historical documentary from Ibn Ishaq who’s work had been lost and it had the history of Mohamad & early Islam.

It was then that Ibn Hisham tried to recreate the documentary of Ishaq.

Many muslims are not familiar with their works and the one’s who have been here -CAF- in the past deny any knowledge of Ishaq and or Hisham.

If you read that verse you posted 4:171 clearly and then check the documented tafsir against it, Islam is very clear.

It **does **criticize the Holy Trinity!

Is the Quran also anti Muslim?:rolleyes:

My conversations with muslim apologists seldom last long because I always want them to explain how can a human tell an All Powerful God that He may not call Jesus His Son.

The god of islam denies the Divinity of Jesus while at the same time claiming Jesus as his prophet.

That Jesus is God-Incarnate is the core belief of Christianity, if Jesus were not God-Incarnate than Christianity would simply not exist.

Jesus speaks of Our Father, Who Jesus told us to think of as Abba which translates as Dad or Daddy, when asked to teach the Apostles how to pray and Jesus speaks of the Holy Spirit in various places, there is the Trinity.

I have been told that the god of islam gets mighty upset if anyone calls him father, anyone out there heard any different?

It should be obvious who the god of islam is.

My friend, I wish all people would explore the realities of religion to this depth to find the Truth. There is context within every single verse of the Quran and with that understanding will come Judeo-Christian-Islamic unity.

I will pray and use my voice of reason to spread abroad this truth until I see humanity moving in this direction! :slight_smile:

As I understand it, Muslims do have a certain devotion to Mary, because Mohammed had a daughter named Fatima, and one of Mary’s appearances was at Fatima, Portugal:shrug:

What God of Islam?

The one that teaches it is okay to hijack airplanes and drive them into skyscrapers, killing thousands of innocent people.!

This thread deteriorated pretty quickly.

:frowning:

A muslim at work said to me that if someone stabs him in the hand and the person that did it comes back for forgivness they must be forgiven but the person that got stabed now has to stab the other back with the same strengh and way.

I said to him simply that we dont do such things If it happend to me i will forgive him and that is that. he is forgiven. HE SAID TO ME THAT INTESTING.

I wished i said that to me this would be revenge and revenge is not right.

Some things I have heard of islam religion is just not right and I am surprised that many people really see this religion as good and true.

You should try to study the teachings rather than the people who called themselves Muslim, lest the teachings of Jesus be judged by what His followers have done :slight_smile:

I think thats the fair and right thing to do in the eyes of God, don’t you?

And where exactly did this God command such an act?

The Qur’an doesn’t fully explain what “three” means in their text. Muslims believe that the Spirit of Allah impregnated Mary, therefore Muslims accept the Spirit of God as a revealed nature of God. This is the third person of the Trinity, fully God, the Spirit of God.

However, Islam has a false concept of what Christians believed the Trinity was:

Surah 4:171O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, “Three”; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.

It would seem as if Allah thought either Mary was the third person of the Trinity or he wasn’t sure. If Allah knew his spirit was simply what we mean by the third person of the Trinity then Allah should have no problem with this understanding as a nature of his.

It can’t explain it because 600 (or is it 700 or 800 :hmmm:) years after Christ it can only speculate.:wink:

MJ

It would seem as if Allah thought either Mary was the third person of the Trinity or he wasn’t sure.

You’d think their “divinely inspired” text would at least know what the Trinity was , if only to rebuke it.

For those interested in apologetics I’ll also add this one:

"And behold! Allah will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, ‘Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah?” He will say: “Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.” Qur’an 5:116

This is another case of Allah thinking that the Trinity or some form of our belief in God involves Mary as a god. Of course we have the historical data to back up that Mary was never considered a god in Christianity and any claim would have been condemned.

It was finished in 632.

-Tim-

Thank you. 599 years after Christ then;).

MJ

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