Could it be true? The Quran is not anti-Trinitarian?

interesting topic :popcorn:

any one who denies the Deity of Jesus is considered a heretic and not a Christian

I don’t see it. While they believe in the One God Father Almighty, they deny the Son is also God.

:confused::confused: CHRISTianity? Christianity is believing in the teachings of Christ. So how could someone be a Christian and not believe in his teachings?

Huh? To begin with Muhammad claims to bring new revelation from God. Jesus said we were to follow the Church and its teachings of the Holy Spirit until he comes again in glory.

Muslims never taught that Jesus was God. Muslims consider Muhammad to be equal to Jesus for goodness sakes.

Yes, there were purges by Roman (=Byzantine at that time) emperors against non-Chalcedonian Christians. However, within the Sassanian Empire (covering various parts of Iraq, Iran, and places farther north and west), the Nestorian church had deep roots.

Between the Sassanian and Roman empires were states that both empires used as buffers. In the case of the Roman empire, they were allied with the (generally miaphysite) Ghassanids, from whom the Maronites of modern day descended (an eastern rite in union with Rome). Notably, Jacob Baradeus – who wrote the letter condemning the tritheism that was widespread among Christian Arabs – was their spiritual head at the time of Muhammad’s birth. In the case of the Sassanian empire, they had until shortly before the time of Muhammad allied with the Lakhmids, which the land of whom they annexed in 602, less than a decade before Muhammad supposedly began receiving his revelation.

If you look at Nestorian criticism of the miaphysites, their condemnations sound a lot like Muslim condemnation (the Nestorians were dyophysites who accepted the trinity but claimed that Christ held both divine and human persons – the divine Logos and human Jesus). As such, they condemned the title for Mary of “theotokos” (God bearer).

Muhammad’s first wife Khadija’hs first cousin was Waraqa ibn Nawfal, whom Muslim tradition claims was an “Ebionite,” but the historicity of Ebionites in Arabia at that time is pretty doubtful (particularly given the historical criterion of embarassment, as Ebionites denied the divinity of Jesus). On the other hand, miaphysite Christianity was present in Najran, in southern Saudia Arabia, and in the Ghassanid kingdom, to its north. The Ghassanid were in trade with Yathrib/Medinah via their tribal kin, the Adzi. And Nestorian Churches were present in Saudi Arabia to the east of the Hijaz, as evidenced by the discovery in 1968 of a 4th century church building in Jubail.

So, it’s true… Khadijah was probably not an orthodox Christian aligned with Chalcedon. However, there is very good reason to suspect that her family was dyophysite or miaphysite.

We could also point to verses in which Muhammad very much denied Christ as God in any sense.

Actually, there is only one verse in the whole Quran that says that Jesus is not the son of God. It’s Sura 9:30, and very weird…
The Jews say, “Ezra is the son (ibn) of Allah”; and the Christians say, “The Messiah is the son (ibn) of Allah.” That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?

That verse in the Quran could just as well have originated from a Nestorian Christian (the same Christians who are being widely persecuted in Syria and Iraq). They rejected the title of Theotokos for Mary, because they denied a union of divinity with humanity. To quote Wikipedia’s entry on Nestorius:
Nestorius believed that no union between the human and divine was possible. If such a union of human and divine occurred, Nestorius believed that Christ could not truly be con-substantial with God and con-substantial with us because he would grow, mature, suffer and die (which he said God cannot do) and also would possess the power of God that would separate him from being equal to humans.

If you listen to any debate between a Christian and Muslim (e.g., Jay Smith vs. Ally Shabir), you’ll hear almost identical statements from Muslims.

The Quran also contains numerous statements that make it appear that Christians are not wrong:
Sura 3:55*
(And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ.*
Sura 29:46*
And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our God and your God is One, and unto Him we surrender.*
To me, the most likely explanation is that Muhammad was a Nestorian Christian. That would explain the Quran’s extensive citation from Christian apocrypha like the Syriac Infancy Gospel (popular among Nestotrians) and the story of the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus, which is also of Syriac origin. It would explain why the oldest piece of Arabic writing in existence reads “In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful” and has a cross next to it! That document contains the date of 22 AH (after Hijra), or 632 – coincidentally the year Muhammad died.

Muhammad led military attacks on the Ghassanids, who were the Christological opposites of the Nestorians. The caliphs who followed him carried on his attacks on a group that a Nestorian would have condemned as heretical. Muhammad died in 632, and even according to Muslim tradition, the Quran wasn’t compiled in final form until 650. Even then, the discovery of the Sana’a I manuscript casts serious doubt on the historicity of the “official” narrative of Uthman’s compilation.

In all likelihood, it was the later caliphs – no later than Abd al-Malik, who made Islam into a religion distinct from Christianity. The record of “Islam” before about 685 is very sketchy, and to me the most likely explanation of Islamic history is that later caliphs shaped the Quran (and later, the Hadith) so that Muhammad wasn’t just condemning a particular form of Christology, but Christianity in general. I don’t actually think they knew the difference, and it was to their political advantage to make Muhammad the center of their new religion.

That explains the comments, I suppose. thanks for that.

But of course it all boils down to interpretation, no where to my understanding is the Trinity mentioned by Jesus, in fact I see much that He says that would deny such a thing.

But I respect that Catholics believe their translation/idea.
We all have to walk our own path in life.

Only God is the All Knowing.

Show me where in the Bible, Jesus says that He is part of a Trinity?

Now you know and so does most of the world, who have read history that there have been great debates/arguments for centuries about translating certain verses of the Bible.

That your Church won out over others, OK, and I can understand your stance on the Trinity, but that does not mean that I believe in it as you do.

I see many attacks upon Islam here in this forum (certainly destroys any bridge building that the different Popes have attempted) and of course in Islam as well there was conflict regarding interpretation, with one side winning the battle. History appears to repeat itself.

So for me you saying that Christians who do not believe in the Trinity are disbelievers in Christs teaching is an affront to my dear mother and grandmother, who were Christians who lived the teachings of Christ. If you ever gain the trust and admiration that these two women had, by people of many different backgrounds and religions, you would consider yourself a fortunate person.

Actually, I will mention that there are Christians who deny the Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant conception of Jesus which was stated at the Council of Chalcedon in 450. Those Christians are known as the Oriental Orthodox. There are also Miaphysite Christians, whose Christology has been considered in recent times to be compatible with that of the Chalcedonian churches. In any case, like all Christians, they are part of the Body of Christ and we pray for reunion.

But of course it all boils down to interpretation, no where to my understanding is the Trinity mentioned by Jesus, in fact I see much that He says that would deny such a thing.

The word “trinity” was not used until Tertullian first employed it in the second century. But Jesus certainly did make statements consistent with the existence of the Holy Trinity. And you don’t even need to reference John’s Gospel to see it, where Jesus explicitly equates himself with God the Father. It’s present in the Synoptic Gospels as well.

For example, the Gospel of Mark is often pointed to by skeptics of Christianity as having a “low Christology.” But in Mark 13:26-27, you see Jesus (who refers to himself as the Son of Man, a reference to Daniel 7) say:
And then they will see ‘the Son of Man coming in the clouds’ with great power and glory, 27 and then he will send his angels and gather [his] elect from the four winds, from the end of the earth to the end of the sky.
But God has angels, right? How can the Son of Man have angels?

I’ll also point to his contradicting the Mosaic law. For example, in Mark 10:6, he says that the reason Moses allowed divorce was due to the hardness of people’s hearts. And he goes on to saying in 10:9: “What God has joined together, no human being must separate.” Even in the Dead Sea Scrolls, divorce is allowed in some cases, despite it being curtailed. But Jesus put himself above Moses here, and unlike the rabbis, made no reference to prior precedent. Only God can hand down law.

Lastly, in Mark 2:7, Jesus says, “Child, your sins are forgiven.” Only God can forgive sins.

Dear friend thank you for your honesty and charity, your words brought a joy to my heart.

Now I fully understand the verses in the Holy Bible that you take as meaning Jesus is God. Again I really do not wish to debate with you, because I know your belief in the Trinity is strong.
All I ask is that you may understand someone having a different understanding, even if you feel my understanding is false.
I can see that when Jesus speaks with the authority of God, that people may confuse this with Him saying He is God, but Jesus was sent by God as His Messenger, His Voice and authority, to me this does not make Jesus God.
The president of The USA sends a representative to talk with another government, this representative, speaks with the authority of the president, he can sign agreements etc with the authority of the President, does not make him the actual President, The representative can say he only speaks what the president has told and instructed him, I think you see what I am saying here?
You say only God can hand down law, how does He do this? Of course through His representative on earth, the same with forgiveness of sin, you say only God can do this. I believe that Jesus being the Messenger of God would have the authority to forgive sins, don’t you, but would not mean that because He did that He is God.
Just some of my thoughts.

This a good question and I hope Im reading you correctly where you may be confused about.

There is a little info. missing you may not know about. Jesus is fully Man and fully God. He humbled himself (to be born of a Virgin) and walked on earth. A living breathing human being.

He forgives sins, as a Man (even though he is also God). Later on Jesus thus informs :" But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” ( for info Im referring to Mark 2:10).

Furthermore the above healing and forgiveness of sins by Jesus, Matthew uses the same event to explain further:

Matthew 9: 8- When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such** authority to man.**

Btw, Im using the NIV Bible (non-Catholic;))

MJ

Thank you for responding to my post.
I feel the little info missing is what I have said to your other friend, concerning my example of the President of the USA.

You say

Jesus is fully Man and fully God.

Now I have already mentioned in my earlier post that I understand that this is your belief, but it is not mine.

Could you reply to my example of the President, this is what I believe of Jesus, He was God’s representative, He spoke for and acted as God, but was not God, my belief.

So really your further declarations of what you believe are doing nothing for me.

Hi, the word “Trinity”, as far as I know, is never mentioned in the bible.

As far as what Jesus said and other things said in the bible that allude to this and to the Divinity of Jesus of Whom the Trinity is composed, so to speak, some of them are:

“I and the Father are One”, “When you pray, pray “Our Father…””, “If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father”, “I will send the Holy Spirit to guide you…”, Jesus spoke of something to the effect that “before Abraham, I Am”, At Jesus’s baptism, a voice came down saying, “This is My Beloved Son in Whom I AM well pleased” and the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove decended, in Genesis, it says, “Let US make man in Our Image…”.

These are just a few, there are more.

Dear friend, yes I understand what you believe, but no one has commented on my example of the US President?

I and the Father are one, Jesus His representative, speaking on behalf of God, in other words in Me you see the attributes of God, I speak with His voice, sorry does not mean that He is God. Why because no one sees God, our only way of understanding God is through the Messenger The Son of Man.
Exactly when you pray, you are to pray to God, for as Jesus said, My father is greater than I. Again confirming that He is not God.
I don’t think I have to go on.

As far as “Why because no one sees God, our only way of understanding God is through the Messenger The Son of Man”, I disagree.

I have met God the Father and after meeting God the Father, I realized that the simple statement “God Is Love” is quite literal and that Love is not an attribute of God but is God’s Very Being.

I also believe that it was somehow thru Jesus that I met Dad because of something written in the bible that Jesus said, “No one knows the Son except the Father and no one knows the Father except the Son and to whomever the Son wishes to reveal Him”.

Also, Jesus said that He would send the Holy Spirit to “guide us…”, when I met the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit revealed to me that the Catholic Eucharist Is Jesus, I believed that it was before this but now I know.

These are some of the things that I know, I don’t know a lot but I do know a little, there are many things that I believe and I have said many times in different places that know and believe do not mean the same thing even tho some seem to interchange them.

I can say that I and the Father have been One but I can not say that I and the Father are One.

I am not trying to convince you of anything but Jesus was/is not just a messenger or representative of God.

One way I look at Jesus’s statement “My father is greater than I”, Jesus was at the time God-Incarnate and had Self imposed limitations being God-Incarnate.

Dear friend some things you say here I can agree with, others I do not.
But that is OK.
We should still be able to be friends even if we believe a little differently. Correct

You say

I have met God the Father and after meeting God the Father, I realized that the simple statement “God Is Love” is quite literal and that Love is not an attribute of God but is God’s Very Being.

Now I do not know exactly what you mean by saying that you have met God the Father. As God has never revealed Himself to mankind, I believe that if He did actually reveal Himself we would cease to exist. Now you go onto to say that God is love etc, these things I fully know and believe.

But as Human beings I believe we only understand God through His Messengers, through Jesus etc they show and teach us about God, this has been the way from the very beginning and will be to the very end, although with God there is no beginning and no end.
That is my belief, you do not have to agree, I am content. Of course just studying nature around me I see the work of God, fortunately we are human and not totally animal, the animal only understands what it sees, hears and feels, whereas man has the ability to understand the unseen. So of course the cow does not understand Jesus or His teachings, many people wish to be like the cow, and only believe like the cow, they do not look further or deeper, they deny what they have not seen or touched.

Your comment

I also believe that it was somehow thru Jesus that I met Dad because of something written in the bible that Jesus said, “No one knows the Son except the Father and no one knows the Father except the Son and to whomever the Son wishes to reveal Him”.

Exactly somehow through Jesus, we get to meet God, to understand Him within our hearts and minds. As for the quote no one knows etc, this also is correct as we do not fully understand God or Jesus, they are to a great degree mysteries to us, but we gain a certain level of understanding from the teachings of Jesus. Correct?

You say

Also, Jesus said that He would send the Holy Spirit to “guide us…”, when I met the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit revealed to me that the Catholic Eucharist Is Jesus, I believed that it was before this but now I know.

I believe the Holy Ghost/Spirit has guided me to a different understanding, I also because of things that have happened in my life, consider I have progressed past belief into what you say “I know”. Now I do not consider what you say as a boast, I believe that you are confident of this “knowing”, because I have had a similar experience. But because our two experiences are different, I understand how cautious we must be with our understanding.
For truly only God is All Knowing, All Wise, we on the other hand are just poor creatures of His creation.

So dear friend we come to a point that maybe we agree to disagree on certain matters.
I read the Bible slightly different to you, but I also draw knowledge from One I consider a Messenger of God, who was promised to come by Jesus, to give us more knowledge of Spiritual matters. Now I do not ask you to believe what I do, we are given freedom of will by God, this has always been His way, of sorting the believers from those who prefer to turn aside.

Love and best wishes dear friend in your journey to God.

As far as meeting God the Father, I met Him in my heart but it wasn’t that He came into my heart, it was that He was already there but revealed Himself to me and I just knew that it was Him.

By the way, I use the male pronoun because pronouns come in handy but God is neither a Male, a Female nor an It even tho God-Incarnate was a Male in His Incarnation.

I have never progressed from believing to knowing, in the way that I define know/knowing, I only know things that have been revealed to me.

I stake absolutely everything on God’s Plan being for ALL, ultimately, to be with God in God’s Kingdom, I do not know the “details” nor do I need to know the “details” but God’s Victory is Total and Absolute in the reconciliation of God and humanity.

There will be those that take a detour or so to the netherworld but God in His Incarnation “won” the “keys” to the netherworld and will use these “keys” in due time, God’s Time.

God is a searcher of hearts and minds not of religious affiliations or lack thereof and It is important what one does and why one does it and what one knows.

We don’t believe everything is written in the bible. We believe in the teachings of the RCC. It was here long before the bible.

The bible itself states the Church is the Pilar of all truth, not the bible!:wink:

Also if your grandmother etc lived her faith the best she could and did not know the understanding of the Trinity through no fault of her own, the Church teaches that through the mercy of God they can still be saved.

The Church teaches God only bounds you to accept the truth you know. Now if your Grandmother knew the true teaching of the Trinity, knew it to be true, but refused to accept is, then her soul is in mortal danger.:wink:

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