Could Mary have sinned?


#742

Yeah, I always thought it odd that the Catholic Church would copy the Pharisees in claiming an oral law as the foundation of their authority which only they were privy too. Why copy the Jewish leaders in something so clearly one of their inventions, leaders who were the most criticized of all by Jesus?

Yet Jesus focused on the commandments written in the Scriptures that all could confirm and focus on as the basis for His teachings, as well as using logically based conclusions that anyone could think through for themselves. Not to mention parables that would relate Kingdom truths in a meaningful, simplified way that the listeners could relate to.


#743

This accusation is offensive. In addition to being off topic,
It constitutes a baseless anti-Catholic bigotry.

The Church gets her Teachings from Jesus, and Jesus did not write any books while on earth. God has always communicated through spoken and then later, written word. The fact that the Pharisees corrupted the Teaching does not invalidate that God’s word came to them.

Rom 3:2-4
To begin with, the Jews are entrusted with the oracles of God. 3 What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? 4 By no means! Let God be true though every man be false,

The Pharisees did not claim oral law as their authority, but their position on the Seat of Moses.

The Head of the Catholic Church is Jesus, and He transferred the Seat of Moses to Peter.


#744

Hmm… I don’t see how the Oral Law the Pharisees claimed had been passed down to them from Moses which only they knew could be used non-authoritatively by them.

However, it is off-topic, so I will start a new topic on the issue.


#745

Why do you keep digging up a rotting corpse? That’s what the Ephesians 1, 6 argument is. You believe that the use of the verb ‘charitoo’ in Luke 1, 28 says nothing unique about the Virgin Mary, since the same verb is used in Ephesians 1, 6 referring to all Christians. But the form of the verb is different here. Luke uses a special conjugated form of ‘charitoo’. In his gospel we have “kecharitomene” whereas in Paul’s epistle we have “echaritosen”. :yup: ‘Echaritosen’ means “He graced” (bestowed grace). It signifies a momentary action, an action brought to pass. [Blass and DeBrunner, ‘Greek Grammar of the New Testament’, p.166.] On the otherhand, ‘kecharitomene’, the perfect passive participle, shows a completeness with a permanent result. ‘Kecharitomene’ signifies a completed action with a permanent result. [H.W. Smythe, 'Greek Grammar, pp. 108-109; Blass and DeBrunner, p.175] Verse 7 refers to us who are inclined to commit transgressions, for our state of grace is not constant and permanent, but momentary and brought to pass, predisposed to change by our own volition. We have inherited original sin, but according to Luke, Mary was not subject to the fall from grace being preserved from original sin. She did not inherit the tendency to sin. Once she was born, Mary heard the word of God and kept it.

“The Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.”
{Origen, ‘Homily 1’ (A.D. 244)}

Unfortunately, in the last two or three centuries non-Catholic Christians have noticeably lost the Scriptural sense of Mary, who was venerated and praised in Christendom through the centuries even among the Protestant reformers of the 16th century. Modern Protestants tend to ignore the interpretation of Scripture of the historic Christian faithful, and replace it with their own biased private interpretation just for the sake of justifying their own existence apart from the historic Christian faith embodied in the Catholic Church. They suffer from “collective amnesia”.

The Catholic Church is the early Church! :thumbsup:

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella :cool:


#746

Agreed. Duly noted and reported.

I’m really getting tired of this forum. It seems like rather than coming to exchange views and learn, we are constantly seeing combative non-Catholics trying to sow dissent and division. There is no attempt to learn, and when questions are explored, the real reasons (anti-Catholic bigotry) come roaring to the fore front.

For those who feel as I do, the Traditional and Orthodox forums are a wonderful place to hang out and learn. While there are disagreements there, it is more like adults discussing topics. Here, it’s more like children covering their ears and having a temper tantrum. I don’t have much patience anymore when people are shown the truth and choose not to listen.

One of the many things that I love about the Catholic Church is that when I hear a position or read the Catechism, if something comes up that sounds odd, or I don’t initially agree with it, I can research both the early Church Fathers and Doctors of the Church, and get very clear, lucid reasoning behind the decision or position. I have learned that in the last 2000 years, there have been dozens, if not hundreds, (or more) people who have devoted their lives to this research. I also found out (surprise, surprise), that most, if not all of them, were a WHOLE LOT smarter than me! This is a hobby for me, for them it was their life.

This not only helps to keep me humble about the amount of my knowledge, but it also gives me a whole lot of confidence and adds to my faith. When Christ talked about the Church prevailing, he certainly gave us very practical means for this by calling all of these people to study, learn, and teach us. I’m thankful for that!

Saul definitely thought he was doing the right thing by attacking the early Church. Saul had his conversion while persecuting the Church, and Jesus took it personally. All of you that are on the attack in this forum would do well to remember that.


#747

Attack? Hey, I simply asked why the Catholic Church would imitate the Pharisees (and the Pharisees did this long before the Catholic Church existed) in claiming oral traditions passed down gave exclusive knowledge. No one has yet answered me, but have simply claimed my question to be offensive bigotry.


Oral Law
#748

Perhaps it is ignorance, and not from a desire to be insulting.
It really belongs on another thread.


#749

Hi Sodak, I really like what you say about keeping humble about the amount of your knowledge. We could all use a bit of humble pie in this area. Some would accuse Catholics of “blindly” falling in step with the Magesterium when we bow down before an Authority greater than our puny little minds.


#750

If someone compared your methods to Hitler’s, would you be offended? Would you even dignify the attack with a response?


#751

What does “charitoo” mean in this sentence?

“He hath made” or "acceppted?
:confused:


#752

But these rules were not obscure to the writers and the original Church. Just because we are numerous languages separated from the Koine Greek doesn’t mean we have to lose the intent of the original authors.


#753

You don’t mean… In marriage, the Two have become One!!! :cool:

You can’t love the Church without loving Christ!


#754

Your statement “this Sacred Tradition to others before a word of the NT was ever written” needs some clarification. Are you claiming that there is some kind of “Sacred Tradition” that was the oral teachings of the aposltes that was not recored in the Scriptures but was somehow passed on to others?


#755

Aren’t you off topic here? :shrug:


#756

I would respond because I believe in being accountable. As long as they’re presenting the case reasonably apart from ad hominem tactics, then why not answer it?

If the accusation is completely false, then the logic will unravel as their questions are approached in the light of reason. Besides, I have no concern for those who present questions calmly and rationally, even if the questions at first seem ridiculous.

I find the ones with truly evil motives who truly mean harm are not content to simply reason logically in such a way, but inevitably resort to base methods of character assassination; attacking a person’s character when they can not beat the logic and reasoning.

I would greatly prefer a person instead who came with the most horrible accusations against me but was willing to discuss them in a calm, logical, and honest manner.


#757

But Jesus never questioned the authority of the Pharisees. Just the prudence in which they exerted it (“prudence” being a little mild compared to Jesus’ words).

The Authority that Jesus gave the Church is real. The power to bind and loose. The traditions that Paul told his audience to hold on to.

Let me ask you this:

If Jesus gave the Church this authority, who are you to deny it! That is anti-biblical.


#758

Didn’t they sit on the Seat of Moses?


#759

This thread has been pruned of offensive and off topic posts.
Please remain on topic and the highest level of Christian charity.
MF


#760

How can you possibly ask me that, ja4, after all the rounds we have done. I know that you reject the notion that “everything” didn’t get into the Bible. The fact is that it did not. Your refusal to accept the validity of Sacred Tradition will not make it go away.

Probably. It is impossible to have a discussion about Mary without getting into Sacred Tradition.


#761

Since Sacred Tradition consists of the oral teachings of the apostles, then it should be very easy to prove.

All those who lived during the time of the apostles certainly wrote a lot and I feel certain that they would have written down what the apostles had to say or else we would not know what the Sacred Tradition was.

So why doesn’t someone point us to the writings of those who lived in the first century, such as: Ignatius, Polycarp, Barnabas, Clement and Justin Martyr.

They all left many writings so it should be an easy task to settle the “Sacred Tradition” thing for once and for all.

I don’t suppose anyone is saying that Ignatius and Barnabas told Clement and Theophilus who told Tertullian who told Origen and Hippolytus and Cyprian who then told Julius Africanus and Dinysius and that takes us up to the third and fourth centuries.

All those men left many writings so all we have to do is go to them and we can see what Sacred Tradition really tell us.

Would someone please list these writings so those of us who are questioning some of the RCC teachings can be quieted??? Surely these Sacred Traditions are written down???


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