Could Transubstantion can occur in Grape Juice or Rice Wafer


#1

As a question of moral theology and not church dotcrine. Could transubstiation occur if an attendent at mass was alcholic or Gluton intolerant? I belive it could be possible. A friend says there are ways aroudn it. Like only offering half of the blessed sacrement. I belive it could be possible. It sure has been getting attention recently in the news but this has been an issue in the church all my life. SO maybe it dates back in history and maybe thats whi its part of church doctrine. After all I am not 2000 years old.


#2

[quote=Bill_A]As a question of moral theology and not church dotcrine. Could transubstiation occur if an attendent at mass was alcholic or Gluton intolerant? I belive it could be possible. A friend says there are ways aroudn it. Like only offering half of the blessed sacrement. I belive it could be possible. It sure has been getting attention recently in the news but this has been an issue in the church all my life. SO maybe it dates back in history and maybe thats whi its part of church doctrine. After all I am not 2000 years old.
[/quote]

Don’t put limits on the power of God, like Jesus said if you had faith the size of a mustard seed etc;
Jesus healed with spittle and dirt, He didn’t have to heal with spittle or dirt, for many of His healings were by His word.
He forgave a man his sins at the abhorrence of the Pharisees, then to show He had the power to forgive, healed the man.

Nothing is impossible for God, for He by His word created us out of nothing.


#3

We must always keep in mind that there is often a big difference between what is possible and what actually occurs.

– Mark L. Chance.


#4

Grape juice I don’t know about, since both that and wine are largely the same thing, other than the alcohol. However, rice and wheat are not the same thing, and the bread which Christ used when he instituted the Lord’s Supper was definitely wheat. However, they do make gluten free hosts, so that really doesn’t need to be an issue. Incidentally, my pastor is allergic to wheat gluten.


#5

GOD can do anything He chooses to do, but he gave all earthly authority to the Church and they say-wine and wheat-period, Life will be much better when we accept lawful authority. If not then we will start to decide which other teachings we don’t like and then choose to ignore using the same argument.


#6

Ya might consider givin’ this question to the AAA forum and then sharing their answer w/us.


#7

I already know that the AAA answer is not in Line with the church but there are alot of Alhoholics out there, at least more than one.


#8

No. According to the Catechism, transubstantiation can only occur with wine and unleavened wheat bread. For a sacrament to be valid, it needs to have the proper materials.

It doesn’t matter what other people say, there is only one correct response to this question and it is in the Catechism. Ask an Apologist if you really want the correct answer.


#9

[quote=Bill_A]As a question of moral theology and not church dotcrine. Could transubstiation occur if an attendent at mass was alcholic or Gluton intolerant? I belive it could be possible. A friend says there are ways aroudn it. Like only offering half of the blessed sacrement. I belive it could be possible. It sure has been getting attention recently in the news but this has been an issue in the church all my life. SO maybe it dates back in history and maybe thats whi its part of church doctrine. After all I am not 2000 years old.
[/quote]

The Wine must be wine first. There is authorized use of wine that has had almost all the alcohol removed. This is used by many priest who had been alcoholic.
This is valid for consecration.

The bread must be made of wheat. I don’t know of any form of wheat approved by the Church that is low in gluten to be used. A person of celiac could recieve the Eucharist through the Blood alone.

We must follow Sacred Tradition.


#10

[quote=Bill_A]As a question of moral theology and not church dotcrine. Could transubstiation occur if an attendent at mass was alcholic or Gluton intolerant? I belive it could be possible. A friend says there are ways aroudn it. Like only offering half of the blessed sacrement. I belive it could be possible. It sure has been getting attention recently in the news but this has been an issue in the church all my life. SO maybe it dates back in history and maybe thats whi its part of church doctrine. After all I am not 2000 years old.
[/quote]

Actually, some of the posts say that God can do anything, which is true. However, Jesus used specific things and ordered His followers to do as He did, when remembering Him.

While some of the Church traditions can be altered according to specific circumstances, the Church cannot fool around with the central tenets of our faith. Since Jesus did not use rice or corn or potatoes, the Church really does not have the authority to either.

To say that God can do anything and therefore the Church can change its position, is like saying we do not need Jesus because God will take care of us. This line of thinking completely relativistic and fairly useless.

Peace.


#11

there are several threads on this topic already, including on AAA, try a search


#12

The human body can sustain life if only bread & wine are consumed on a daily basis. Jesus knew what he was doing, contrary to popular belief.

Jesus gave us his sacred body & blood in the sacrament veiled by the bread & wine, he used these elements because they were part of the Passover meal celebrated for centuries. Who are we to change what Christ himself instituted just beacuse a others can’t consume one or the other be it from allegy or disease? Maybe those people should pray & ask God to heal them before trying to change thousands of years of religion & tradition…after all NOTHING is impossible with God.:slight_smile:


#13

[quote=Agomemnon]The Wine must be wine first. There is authorized use of wine that has had almost all the alcohol removed. This is used by many priest who had been alcoholic.
This is valid for consecration.

The bread must be made of wheat. I don’t know of any form of wheat approved by the Church that is low in gluten to be used. A person of celiac could recieve the Eucharist through the Blood alone.

We must follow Sacred Tradition.
[/quote]

What is approved as actually wine where the fermentation process was stopped early (usually by freezing), this is called
Mustum. It has been recognized as being valid for consecration, but it’s use must be approved by the local Bishop.

There are appoved ‘low gluten’ hosts as well.

Here are the USCCB guidelines below

ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFMUSTM.HTM


#14

[quote=Stephen-Maguire]Don’t put limits on the power of God,

Nothing is impossible for God, for He by His word created us out of nothing.
[/quote]

Yes, but we must follow the limits that God has placed ON US.

Namely, the use of Bread (which means gluten) and Wine (from grapes, including at least a trace of alcohol)

God may choose any means He wants to come to us, but for us to believe requires Revelation. God has not Revealted any other method for His Presence in the Eucharist than the one we know today.


#15

This question has been answered well, but I’d just like to add one thing: for any sacrament to be valid, there must be the proper form and substance. Form means the word and motions that take place, substance means whatever materials are used. With the eucharist, the form is the proper eucharistic prayer (if the priest changes this too much, sorry, you’re not receiving Jesus’ body and blood); the substance is bread and wine. Like you all said, it’s the way God intended. Of course he has reasons for it, but before we even begin to try to understand them, we should first place our faith and God and accept his teachings through our Church.


#16

[quote=Bill_A]As a question of moral theology and not church dotcrine.
[/quote]

How is transubstantiation a question of moral theology?


#17

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