Couple of questions on the Mass

Some relatively simpe questions, I hope for those out there that can answer.

Is there a precise point in the Mass where tansubstantiation occurs. I don't mean to some generic point such as the Liturgy of the Eucharist, but something more precise, such as when the Priest says certaint words, blesses the host, raises the chalice etc...

(As an aside, if this is the high point of the mass, why do we have collections being taken up at this time, surely all our attention should be directed towards the altar???)

Should all of the hosts being used at the mass be on the altar at this time, or remain in a tabernacle and removed just prior to distribution of Holy Communion. What I mean is, does tansubstantiation occur inside the tabernacle as well as on the alter, even though the priest doesn't say the prayers or hold his hands over them during the Liturgy of the Eucharist?

Also, is it obligatory for the Creed to be said at mass?

[quote="JohnT58, post:1, topic:184231"]

Is there a precise point in the Mass where tansubstantiation occurs. I don't mean to some generic point such as the Liturgy of the Eucharist, but something more precise, such as when the Priest says certaint words, blesses the host, raises the chalice etc...

[/quote]

When the priest says, 'This is my body' and 'This is my blood', the bread and wine become the body and blood, soul and divinity of Christ.

[quote="JohnT58, post:1, topic:184231"]

...surely all our attention should be directed towards the altar...

[/quote]

The collection should be taken up during the presentation of the gifts. The collection process should be done by the time the priest starts the consecration.

[quote="JohnT58, post:1, topic:184231"]

Should all of the hosts being used at the mass be on the altar at this time, or remain in a tabernacle and removed just prior to distribution of Holy Communion. What I mean is, does tansubstantiation occur inside the tabernacle as well as on the alter, even though the priest doesn't say the prayers or hold his hands over them during the Liturgy of the Eucharist?

[/quote]

At the very least, any host that has not yet been consecrated should be on the altar. I am unsure about the already consecrated hosts. They don't need to be re-consecrated, but I don't know if they have to be on the altar.

[quote="JohnT58, post:1, topic:184231"]

Also, is it obligatory for the Creed to be said at mass?

[/quote]

It probably depends on the kind of Mass. Daily Mass, for example, may not required the creed.

[quote="fermat, post:2, topic:184231"]
I am unsure about the already consecrated hosts. They don't need to be re-consecrated, but I don't know if they have to be on the altar.

[/quote]

In a word, no, they do not, and in fact, should not.

[quote="JohnT58, post:1, topic:184231"]

Also, is it obligatory for the Creed to be said at mass?

[/quote]

Additionally, during a mass at which the Sacrament of Baptism is celebrated, the Nicene Creed is not said; instead, the Baptismal vows are renewed. Slight distinction.

\When the priest says, 'This is my body' and 'This is my blood', the bread and wine become the body and blood, soul and divinity of Christ.\

While this is the theological tradition of the Latin Church, based on her liturgical praxis, it is NOT that of the Eastern Churches, which also require an Epiclesis, or invocation of the Holy Spirit to affect the change of the Bread and Wine into the Body and Blood of Christ.

[quote="bpbasilphx, post:5, topic:184231"]
\When the priest says, 'This is my body' and 'This is my blood', the bread and wine become the body and blood, soul and divinity of Christ.\

While this is the theological tradition of the Latin Church, based on her liturgical praxis, it is NOT that of the Eastern Churches, which also require an Epiclesis, or invocation of the Holy Spirit to affect the change of the Bread and Wine into the Body and Blood of Christ.

[/quote]

I questioned that. I thought the Epiclesis might be the defining moment. Do you know of any data, if it's not too much trouble.Thanks

The hosts in the tabernacle have already been consecrated at previous Masses. These hosts (contained in a ciborium) are not put on the altar until after (during) the sign of peace and the Agnus Dei (Lamb of God...).

The collection should be happening during the offertory and should not go past the presentation of the gifts (most parishes present the collected offerings when the bread and wine are presented.) I would be surprised if your parish was continuing the collection during the Eucharistic Prayer and especially during the words of consecration.

[quote="bpbasilphx, post:5, topic:184231"]
\When the priest says, 'This is my body' and 'This is my blood', the bread and wine become the body and blood, soul and divinity of Christ.\

While this is the theological tradition of the Latin Church, based on her liturgical praxis, it is NOT that of the Eastern Churches, which also require an Epiclesis, or invocation of the Holy Spirit to affect the change of the Bread and Wine into the Body and Blood of Christ.

[/quote]

Granted, but the OP is asking this question from the view the Roman viewpoint.

Anyway, all the Latin Rite eucharistic prayers include an epiclesis.

[quote="Mintaka, post:9, topic:184231"]
Anyway, all the Latin Rite eucharistic prayers include an epiclesis.

[/quote]

In the Roman Canon, yes there is an Epiklesis, but it is an implicit Epiklesis which comes before the Institution Narrative rather than explicit one coming after it. While the other Roman Rite Eucharistic Prayers are perhaps a bit more explicit in wording, it is still positioned before the Institution Narrative and is of a different character than is Epiklesis in the various Eastern and Oriental liturgies.

To clarify, I am asking about an ordinary Sunday Mass.

quote="JohnT58, post:1, topic:184231"

[/quote]

No "collection" should be taking place during the Eucharistic Prayer. The only thing that should be happening during this time is the priest praying this prayer and everyone devoutly paying attention!

[quote="JohnT58, post:1, topic:184231"]
Should all of the hosts being used at the mass be on the altar at this time, or remain in a tabernacle and removed just prior to distribution of Holy Communion.

[/quote]

Only already-consecrated hosts are placed in the tabernacle; only un-consecrated bread and wine is placed on the altar DURING the Eucharistic Prayer. Just before Communion, hosts consecrated at a previous Mass can be brought form the tabernacle to the altar.

[quote="JohnT58, post:1, topic:184231"]
Also, is it obligatory for the Creed to be said at mass?

[/quote]

At an "ordinary Sunday Mass", the Creed follows the homily, and the Prayer of the Faithful follows the Creed. There are certain rites which can take the place of the Creed, but ordinarily, on Sundays, you pray the Creed.

Thats what I thought, though not always the case to my experience, on the Creed and collections.

As for hosts in the tabernacle, couldn't say one way or another if they're from a previous mass or not, I suppose it is to be inferred. But I would find it strange that all the hosts, aside from the large one the priest holds up were from a previous Mass, every week, for say, a vigil mass. Assuming they are from a previous mass, it would make no difference I suppose, except on a symbolic level. If they are not, would they still be validly transformed into the Eucharist?

[quote="JohnT58, post:13, topic:184231"]
As for hosts in the tabernacle, couldn't say one way or another if they're from a previous mass or not, I suppose it is to be inferred.

[/quote]

If there is a host in the tabernacle, you can be sure it has already been consecrated. Mere bread is never to be placed in the tabernacle, only the consecrated Eucharist may be reserved in there. And that Eucharist was consecrated at some previous Mass, logically.

[quote="JohnT58, post:13, topic:184231"]
I would find it strange that all the hosts, aside from the large one the priest holds up were from a previous Mass, every week, for say, a vigil mass.

[/quote]

It depends how quickly the reserved Sacrament in the tabernacle is used at Masses.

[quote="JohnT58, post:13, topic:184231"]
Assuming they are from a previous mass, it would make no difference I suppose, except on a symbolic level. If they are not, would they still be validly transformed into the Eucharist?

[/quote]

If they are from a previous Mass, they are already the Eucharist.

=JohnT58;Some relatively simpe questions, I hope for those out there that can answer.

Is there a precise point in the Mass where tansubstantiation occurs. I don't mean to some generic point such as the Liturgy of the Eucharist, but something more precise, such as when the Priest says certaint words, blesses the host, raises the chalice etc...

*Yes indeed. In fact two such "moments."

When the Priest holds up the host and pronounces "THIS IS MY BODY..."

And similarly when he holds up the chalnce and says "THIS IN MY BLOOD..."

These are the precise words Christ used and the words that make Christ present to us in His Glorified Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. :)*

(As an aside, if this is the high point of the mass, why do we have collections being taken up at this time, surely all our attention should be directed towards the altar???)

*Collections ought to be taken BEFORE the "Eucharistic Prayers and Comunion Rite" takes place. Indeed th Bread and wine are normally brought to the altar, AFTER the collection, and just prior to the Eucharisitic parts of the Mass.:thumbsup: *

Should all of the hosts being used at the mass be on the altar at this time, or remain in a tabernacle and removed just prior to distribution of Holy Communion. What I mean is, does tansubstantiation occur inside the tabernacle as well as on the alter, even though the priest doesn't say the prayers or hold his hands over them during the Liturgy of the Eucharist?

*No. Reservered host are often used for "sick home visits." However the ideal is to eue host Transubstanuated at that Mass, even though it is not an absolute necessity. *

Also, is it obligatory for the Creed to be said at mass?

Yes. The orginal "Apostles Creed" by church tradition was written by the Apostles themselves. Each one contribuiting. It is a summation of who we are, and what we believe, and it is to be said.

Love and prayers,

Pat

[quote="JohnT58, post:1, topic:184231"]

Is there a precise point in the Mass where transubstantiation occurs. I don't mean to some generic point such as the Liturgy of the Eucharist, but something more precise, such as when the Priest says certain words, blesses the host, raises the chalice etc...

[/quote]

I've never read a document that specifies a particular point. I don't think it has been revealed. If it is true for the Latin church it is true. From the words you cannot tell if the statement "This is my Body" is an action or a statement of fact.

But when the Specie of Bread is transubstantiated, both Body and Blood are present. When the Specie of Blood is transubstntiated, the Body and Blood, and Soul and Divinity are present.

I suppose question would be of importance in times when the priest dies or takes kill during the Eucharistic Prayer and cannot finish. Was the transubstantiation completed? I hope not to live in such times. Of course, in that event, another priest is supposed to come and complete the mass from the point of interuption

[quote="Evan, post:16, topic:184231"]
I've never read a document that specifies a particular point. I don't think it has been revealed. If it is true for the Latin church it is true. From the words you cannot tell if the statement "This is my Body" is an action or a statement of fact.

But when the Specie of Bread is transubstantiated, both Body and Blood are present. When the Specie of Blood is transubstntiated, the Body and Blood, and Soul and Divinity are present.

I suppose question would be of importance in times when the priest dies or takes kill during the Eucharistic Prayer and cannot finish. Was the transubstantiation completed? I hope not to live in such times. Of course, in that event, another priest is supposed to come and complete the mass from the point of interuption

[/quote]

While it is true that both Christ Body and His Blood are whole and entire under each seperate species, it is important to understand the seperate Consecration is to show and remind us that our Lords Blood was seperated from His Body for us in the Passion.

[quote="PJM, post:17, topic:184231"]
While it is true that both Christ Body and His Blood are whole and entire under each seperate species, it is important to understand the seperate Consecration is to show and remind us that our Lords Blood was seperated from His Body for us in the Passion.

[/quote]

Quite true. So... is there two miracles or one? If the change takes place at the epiclesis(sp?) there would be one. If at the 'words of consecration', two. If at some other time, one?, two? It is required that both species be present or the 'mass' is invalid, not just illicit. So it implies one (the bread) cannot be transubstantiated without the other (the wine).

I have no answer and am willing to live with that. :)

God bless.

[quote="japhy, post:14, topic:184231"]
If there is a host in the tabernacle, you can be sure it has already been consecrated. Mere bread is never to be placed in the tabernacle, only the consecrated Eucharist may be reserved in there. And that Eucharist was consecrated at some previous Mass, logically.

It depends how quickly the reserved Sacrament in the tabernacle is used at Masses.

If they are from a previous Mass, they are already the Eucharist.

[/quote]

I know this is what is to be inferred logically. My point is, even at the first mass for the Sunday, there is already a surplace of 2-3 chalices in the tabernacle..... presumbably from a previous mass, Saturday morning etc..I can understand some being left over, but the entire amount of hosts to be distributed **every week? Is there a benefit to consecrating hosts for the congregation prior to a mass? On a routine week to week basis, roughly the same amount would be required for each mass, (people are creatures of habit) with only small amounts left over. It is just something that occurs to me when I see it. **The main point I'm driving at is, would it do any harm for them to be on the alter as well, even if consecrated?

Thanks for all the informative answers folks, it as good to get other peoples views on this.

[quote="JohnT58, post:19, topic:184231"]
I know this is what is to be inferred logically. My point is, even at the first mass for the Sunday, there is already a surplace of 2-3 chalices in the tabernacle..... presumbably from a previous mass, Saturday morning etc..I can understand some being left over, but the **entire amount of hosts to be distributed **every week? Is there a benefit to consecrating hosts for the congregation prior to a mass? On a routine week to week basis, roughly the same amount would be required for each mass, (people are creatures of habit) with only small amounts left over. It is just something that occurs to me when I see it.

[/quote]

The number of ciboria in the tabernacle varies from church to church. There is no set rule. Nor is there a set rule for when hosts are consecrated. Often what happens is that one (or more) full ciborium will be consecrated at a weekday Mass, so as not to have too many vessels on the altar on Sundays. That practice dates from long before any post-conciliar "reforms" were seen.

[quote="JohnT58, post:19, topic:184231"]
The main point I'm driving at is, would it do any harm for them to be on the alter as well, even if consecrated?

[/quote]

I believe that japhy has already addressed that particular point (color added):

[quote="japhy, post:12, topic:184231"]
Only already-consecrated hosts are placed in the tabernacle; only un-consecrated bread and wine is placed on the altar DURING the Eucharistic Prayer. Just before Communion, hosts consecrated at a previous Mass can be brought form the tabernacle to the altar.

[/quote]

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