Creation of the Baptist Faith


#1

I had the following detailed question planned for a Baptist lady I know, but she wasn’t at church this past Sunday so I couldn’t ask it to her. I post it here as an FYI, but maybe somebody here can find it useful, or even answer it.

Jesus Christ said to Peter, “You are Rock, and on this Rock, I will build my church.” Shortly after Christ’s death, He appeared to Saul as he was making his way to Damascus and changed his name to Paul. Paul then spread the Good News across the Mediterranean and beyond. For almost 1600 years, Catholic’s were the only Christians in the world. Then came along a man by the name of John Smith who questioned the Catholic faith and/or wasn’t happy in what the church was teaching. That I know of, John Smith did not receive any type of divine message or intervention. However, he must have been very charismatic in his belief that the Catholic Church was wrong, or the people that he got to follow him must have been very weak in their faith. Either way he and his followers broke away from the Catholic Church and he started the Baptist faith in 1605. So the question is mainly to those of the Baptist faith, but maybe somebody else can answer it: Why did God wait nearly 1600 years after Jesus died to tell a one John Smith (once again, I haven’t been able to find a record of divine communication between Mr. Smith and God) that we (Catholics) have been worshipping Him wrong all this time and that it (worshipping of God) needs to be done in this manner (without the Eucharist, only one forgiveness of sins, etc.)? Peter and Paul were commissioned by God Himself to convert the people of the world to Catholicism. Where is John Smith’s divine communication from God that says we (Catholics) are wrong in the way we worship God? And why did it take nearly 1600 years for John to receive that divine communication?


#2

[quote=Ravzender] Where is John Smith’s divine communication from God that says we (Catholics) are wrong in the way we worship God? And why did it take nearly 1600 years for John to receive that divine communication?
[/quote]

The same question can be asked of every other protestant group in reference to their founder.


#3

Please let us know the lady’s answer when you get one, although I’m not sure you’ll get one.

Notworthy

P.S. “Paul” is actually the Greek rendition of the Aramaic “Saul”. God never changed his name.


#4

When I was Baptist, I have to admit that I didn’t care if my church wasn’t founded until the 1600s. This was because I assumed that the Baptist church was 100% correct in its interpretation of scripture. I simply believed that we were correct and everyone else was wrong. So, bringing up the history of her denomination might not have any effect on this woman.


#5

As far as I can find out Joseph Smith founded the Mormon Church in the 1820’s in Palmyra, near New york.
The Baptist Church was founded in 1822 by Elijah Lewis and Eliakim Raymond in Brooklyn, New York.


#6

John Smythe


#7

Can you provide some references for your Baptist origin story? It’s not that I think you’re lying or anything, it’s just I was always under the impression that the Baptists had broken away from other Protestant-type groups, not directly from the Catholic Church.


#8

There are lots of reasons I think this will not work. I think most Baptists deny history, some say that it was written by Catholics and therefore is flawed and that Baptists always existed (yeah right).
There was a valid reason for the reformation which was sweeping across Europe, whether you agree with it or not.

I do agree with the premis of your argument, but think you need to arm yourself with some more historical background before embarking on this line of discussion.


#9

[quote=FightingFat]There are lots of reasons I think this will not work. I think most Baptists deny history, some say that it was written by Catholics and therefore is flawed and that Baptists always existed (yeah right).
There was a valid reason for the reformation which was sweeping across Europe, whether you agree with it or not.

I do agree with the premis of your argument, but think you need to arm yourself with some more historical background before embarking on this line of discussion.
[/quote]

A lot **don’t **care about the history of their church. Most Baptist realize that their church wasn’t the original church. A Baptist Sunday School that I attended once said that in order to be true to the early Christians we’d all have to live communally.

The reason that most Baptist are Baptist is because they believe that their interpretation of the bible is the most correct one.

In all honesty, I have learned more about church history from this website then I ever did as a Baptist.


#10

Deb1 is right… you can find history of the Baptist church that
will say most anything you wanna read…

bible-truth.org/fundbapt.htm#003

but, history isn’t real important in the Baptist church, i was
raised in the Baptist church, and for instance, never knew
that the King James Version of the bible was printed for the
church of England, nor did i know that it contained the
"Catholic" books from it’s first printing until 1885 or so…

i thought the KJV was THE bible…

Merry Christmas

:slight_smile:


#11

oh, one more note…

i have a booklet from when i was a kid, that the
preacher of our church put together…

in it, he says “Jesus was baptised by a Baptist
preacher”… that’s an exact quote… lol

Merry Christmas

:slight_smile:


#12

[quote=thistle]As far as I can find out Joseph Smith founded the Mormon Church in the 1820’s in Palmyra, near New york.
The Baptist Church was founded in 1822 by Elijah Lewis and Eliakim Raymond in Brooklyn, New York.
[/quote]

  • I think the Baptist church was started in 1609 by John SMYTH,I think it was in Amsterdam iT DID NOT BREAK AWAY FROM THE CC*

#13

[quote=FightingFat]There was a valid reason for the reformation which was sweeping across Europe, whether you agree with it or not.
[/quote]

 More importantly, it would be what Christ would disagree with, and I don't think he would agree to the iconoclastic handling of his immutable Church. Additionally, I doubt he took kindly the severing of the Apostolic succession he commanded and the impeachment of his Mother as Queen of Heaven.

 Andy

#14

Thank you all for pointing out the holes in my argument. I’ll research the points and solidify my case before talking to the Baptist lady this was intended for.

Ravzender


#15

1st, It’s John Smyth (I’ve never seen an ‘e’ at the end of Smyth)

2nd, The Baptist sect was invented (OK, founded:rolleyes: ) in c. 1609

3rd, The Baptists separated of from the Church of England (just another Protestant schism. Mostly English speaking and KJV using too).

4th, Baptists did not sprout out of the ‘Ana’/”RE” Baptizers (Anabaptists) (You cannot “RE” baptize anyone!:thumbsup: ) They did take on some of the heresy’s of the Anabaptists though.

5th, ‘John the Baptist’ DID NOT found the Baptist sect as they so often brag to me!

6th, It was a Baptist preacher who started me home to the Catholic Church! PRAISE GOD I am now a **“BORN AGAIN CATHOLIC!” **:dancing: (Through his contradictions of Scripture and other Baptist preachers)

Now to respond to you. Most Baptists don’t care about anything outside the KJV bible. If Satan founded their sect they could care less. They believe what they believe and they believe it’s ALL correct – even when every Baptist contradicts each other! They don’t study history as a rule and they reform it (i.e. rewrite it, become historical revisionists, ignore it, etc.) when they do. Some Baptists believe the Catholic Church split off from them! If you’re lucky, very lucky, your Baptist friend will be interested in history and you can explain to her when, where, and why her sect was founded. Remember, some Baptist sects are no older then when their preacher started preaching what he preaches now. Also, if you can find two Baptists that believe the same thing I’ll give you a cigar!

About St. Mt. 16:18-19 (AKJV the only ‘real’ KJV) “18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

MOST Baptist I talk to believe that the ‘keys’ were given to everyone in this verse! It is their interpretation and that’s it, discussion over! They ALL have the ‘keys’. They also believe St. Peter was a small, insignificant, pebble, an itty bitty ‘stone’. Who would build a Church on a little pebble?

Protestants need no reason to invent a new sect. Look at one wrong and he’ll leave and start a new sect. They grew up like that and see nothing wrong in it. Of course, the Bible writers did!

Try these web sites for some Baptist history:

reformedreader.org/btimline.htm

newadvent.org/cathen/02278a.htm

When you talk to your Baptist friend ALLWAYS speak with love, never hate nor mocking or spite, etc. Show respect to her and to her sect. She my treat you with scorn and speak lies of Christ’s body, His Catholic Church but forgive her for that. Show the faults, contradictions and complete mayhem in her sect but do it with love, honesty and politeness. Speak to her much more kindly then I have written here.

Try to pick one or two subjects to talk with her about and don’t let her drift off topic. Study the topics and learn the Catholic side and the Baptist side. Learn what she will say BEFORE she says it! Watch to the Journey Home on EWTN for Baptists that have come home to the Catholic Church. See if she will watch an episode with you? Get her a book written by Baptists who came home too.

Try to find Bible topics that contradict her “ME”ology. Look at Jn 6:48-54 and explain how the Catholics interpret the Bible literally and the Baptists don’t! Show her 1 Cor 10 & 11 that prove the Catholic interpretation correct.

Look at Jas 2:24 and show how it proves “faith alone” wrong. Look at 1 Cor 12 and 13 and why have ‘HOPE’ if you have assurance?

Compare John Smyth to Joseph Smith. What do they have in similar?

Point out in the Bible were it says NOT to self-interpret, schism, be divided, follow false prophets (Smyth), etc…

You’ll find more too.

Try this site for some more truths for her:

members.aol.com/uticacw/baptist/bibletruth.html


#16

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