Crusades, Inquisition, Jews


#1

When discussin the WoB, Protestants tend to point to the Crusades, Inquisition, and the Jews (the Church “not stopping the holocaust” kind of stuff) as the sins of the Whore and such.

What should one do in such case?

Thnx!
God bless!


#2

Remind them that without the Crusades they’d all be on their knees facing Mecca five times a day.

There was more than one Inquisition, about which there is solid information from unbiased sources, if they care to actually read up on the topic.

And the Jews and the Holocaust. Yes, if Pius XII had only used his shock troops to deliver them from the Nazis, instead of prayer, trusting in God, hiding as many as he could at the Vatican, encouraging efforts by his priests and religious to save those they could, and opposing Nazi doctrine, I’m sure he could have stopped the whole thing from happening. :rolleyes:


#3

I just can’t see the Swiss Guards standing up to a panzer division…:smiley:


#4

Those are good points.

I need more insight on the Inquisition though.
I mentioned that though they were punishment (severe, sadly), in that time the punishmens would be normal…

What else can I use?


and he brings the Jews again saying that the Catholic Church did not stop the holocaust… ?


#5

Ask your friend if he speaks Arabic. If he tells you “No”, tell him “Your Welcome”!!!

Also, ask your friend if the Church didn’t protect the Jews in WWII, like he claims, then why did the Jewish Patriarch (?) of Rome convert to Catholicism shortly after the war (or was it Jerusalem - no, I think it was Rome). It couldn’t have been because he saw so much Christian Charity from the Vatican, maybe?

Regarding the Inquisition, ask your friend why did the Church feel the need for the inquisition. If you had people in your Church become priests even though they didn’t believe in Christianity, wouldn’t you want to do something about it? Or would you let people teach the faith who didn’t even believe the faith? What could possibly go wrong there?


#6

Good points,
but again, regardin the Harlot of Babylon spilling the blood “of all who have been slain on earth” the oponent still points to the Inquisition and the punishments.

btw, to check out the debate go to
blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=197761458&blogID=291858835

God bless


#7

Unless they are willing to be educated in the facts, and prepared to examine the Protestant Inquisition with honesty, discussion is a waste of time. 400 years of contant propaganda is hard to overcome. The main reason Protestants like to “discuss” these things is to discredit the authority of the Church. They are rarely interested in the facts.

It’s true that SOME atrocities occured, but it was never Church policy, it was sin. They sinned against God and .violated Church teaching. Wherever people are, sin exist. In the end, it is proven that some of both Catholics and Protestant spiritual ancestors were sinners. What a startling revelation!

What the Crusades Were Really Like (Part 1)
Thomas Madden Dispels Myths
zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=60179

The Myth of the Spanish Inquisition
catholic.net/RCC/Periodicals/Dossier/1112-96/article4.html

catholic.net/RCC/Periodicals/Dossier/1112-96/column1.html

Anti-Catholicism, Hypocrisy and Double Standards. (new)
constantinesrant.blogspot.com/2007/07/anti-catholicism-hypocrisy-and-double.html

Whore of Babylon
ewtn.com/expert/answers/whore_of_babylon.htm


#8

Pope Pius XII spoke out unequivocally against Naziism before and during the War in literally scores of newspaper articles and radio announcements. He melted Vatican gold to pay for the expenses of providing travelling papers and for hiding Jews and secreting them to safe countries.

He hid 4000 Jews in his own houses. He was responsible for saving 850 000 Jewish lives. So brave was he that the Chief Rabbi of Rome converted to Catholicism after the war, Golda Meir sang his praises, and he was named one of the Righteous Ones by Israel.

Now, if your friend wants to know where Hitler got his Final Solution from concerning the disposal of the Jews, look at Luther’s anti-Jewish program. Hitler burned the synagogues on Luther’s birthday and admits to being inspired by Luther’s book The Jews and Their Lies.

:shrug:

Perhaps your friend may enjoy pondering the notion that folks who live in glass houses should not cast stones?

:wink: :smiley:


#9

I hope you have not come to CAF to try to get us to swarm a board on another website. We are not allowed to do that because it sometimes causes misunderstandings and conflicts. If your friends would like to come here, they will find that the forum rules are very fair.


#10

As Della mentioned, there was more than one Inquisition.

The infamous Spanish Inquisition was run by the Spanish King, Ferdinand. Ferdinand, the 1490s had finally overrun the Iberian Peninsula (that is all of Spain and Portugal). He was encouraged by his advisors and Torquemada (the Grand Inquisitor) to kick out all non-Catholics. As a result, a huge number of Jews and Muslims “converted” to Catholicism to escape being kicked out (and having all of their possesions siezed). Ferdinand was one of the first kings to reestablish royal control over the national Church. While he had the Spanish Church run the Inquisition, it was given royal, not Vatican approval for the punishments and tortures. In fact, it was Spanish soldiers, if I am not mistaken, who carried out the punishments.

Compare this with the Inquisition that tried Galileo. Galileo was tried not for his helio-centric theories (which a number of Jesuits had independently supported as well), but for his claim that the Bible was wrong based on his new findings. It was for this that he was found guiltly and put on house-arrest (allowed to recieve guests and a whole bunch of ammenities, too).

Note the differences between the two Inquisitions.


#11

btw, I am reading about Calvin on my other screen. Your friend might be interested in the excesses to which this gentlemen went to ensure that folks adhered to the new religion. This is a long article. I would skim down to the middle.

newadvent.org/cathen/03195b.htm

As for the Spanish Inquisition, here are the facts. This is a relatively short and easy-to-read article.

crisismagazine.com/october2003/madden.htm

Most people accused of heresy by the medieval Inquisition were either acquitted or their sentence suspended. Those found guilty of grave error were allowed to confess their sin, do penance, and be restored to the Body of Christ.

The underlying assumption of the Inquisition was that, like lost sheep, heretics had simply strayed. If, however, an inquisitor determined that a particular sheep had purposely departed out of hostility to the flock, there was nothing more that could be done. Unrepentant or obstinate heretics were excommunicated and given over to the secular authorities.

Despite popular myth, the Church did not burn heretics. It was the secular authorities that held heresy to be a capital offense. The simple fact is that the medieval Inquisition saved uncounted thousands of innocent (and even not-so-innocent) people who would otherwise have been roasted by secular lords or mob rule.


#12

Nop. This is my own “formal” debate in my own blog with some guy Leon. Any other comments before the debate is closed are not allowed.


As for the other answers, wow, I will have to keep them on mind and look at those sites. Good stuff


#13

This is very interesting and I must confess something I know very little about but as a catholic I am always asked about especialy when asked why we put to death or handed over one of our own St joan of arc. please if you have more factual info, share??


#14

Refer anyone interested in getting the unvarnished truth about the Inquisition to the various books written on the subject by Henry Kamen. He is an atheist and no friend of the Catholic Church. His research is completely unbiased and it pretty well dismantles the Protestant case against the Church. The exaggerations concerning the Inquisition have been repeated so many times that many people take them as fact.

A number of years ago the BBC did a documentary on the Inquisition that likewise debunked the exaggerated views of the Church and the Inquisition. Likewise, Protestants had their own Inquisitions and executions. Those that were believed to be witches were frequently burned at the stake by Protestants and were even killed by Protestants in America…i.e. the Salem witch trials. Henry the VIII committed more executions and huge injustices against Catholics in a 30 year period than the Catholics did during the entire 400 years of the Spanish Inquisition.

These are all facts that can be easily verified through modern research. Kamen and other scholars are a great source for debunking the myths surrounding the Inquisitions.

I hope this helps.


#15

Not to mention that the majority of Nazi soldiers who carried out the Holocaust were protestants! And that many more Catholics than protestants were victims of the Holocaust. A protestant has got one hell of a nerve saying that the Catholics didn’t do enough to stop the Nazi Holocaust.

I’ve no doubt that when you point this out to these protestants, they’ll come out with the same old line that whenever protestants do a bad thing that’s because “they’re not real protestants who belong to the true protestant denomination which I happen to belong to” (well duh because it was probably only invented after 1945) but anything bad done by any Catholic anytime anywhere, and regardless of how much it was condemned by Popes and bishops, MUST reflect the policy and doctrines of the Catholic Church. Because “everybody knows” that every Catholic blindly and robotically obeys everything the Pope tells him to do, so even if the Pope appeared to condemn it, he must have secretly told him to do it.


#16

“We” (the Catholic Church) didn’t. St Joan was captured as a prisoner of war by the Burgundians (then an independent state) and sold to the English, then killed by the English government after a rigged trial in a secular English government court which repeatedly refused to permit her to appeal to the Pope. The Catholic Church soon condemned her trial and execution as a gross miscarriage of justice and proclaimed her a martyr for the Catholic Faith. The one Catholic bishop who took part in the trial was censured by the Church.


#17

Re the Crusades, remind them that Luther and the other proto-Protestants during the first few years of their revolt criticised the Crusades; but then when the mighty Turkish army which had conquered all of southeast Europe, beseiged Vienna and looked as if they were about to over-run all of Germany, they decided that the Crusades were a good idea after all.

Not that that meant they lifted a finger to help of course: they let the heavily outnumbered Catholics of Vienna, helped by the Catholic Poles, fight on their own to achieve a miraculous victory and lift the siege.


#18

Crusades - Protestants love to bring up these wars, since no Protestants were around to participate in them. But Protestants were involved in plenty of “religious wars”, ask your Protestant friends about them.

Inquisition - Largely a product of English anti-Spanish/anti-Catholic propaganda. I understand that historians are now exposing the Black Legend of the Inquisition, that it wasn’t near as bad as the propaganda tells. I understand that these courts were more advanced over their civil counterparts.

Also, as I recall, the Pilgrims weren’t fleeing Catholic countries, but Protestant England.

Holocaust - Well, if PROTESTANTISM was opposing the holocaust, how come it occured?


#19

What happened to Anton Pavelic of Croatia after the war?


#20

Torture and burning at the stake seem pretty bad to me.


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