"Curses" in Latin Mass?

Well, the reason I’m talking about this stuff is because I expect some of the old folk religion to return with the increased popularity of the Tridentate Mass. In the old days, what many Catholics would do is take one word out the Latin Mass, a Latin word that had an extra meaning to it, and expand on it. There were quite a few theories and strange beliefs floating around back in those days.

I just went out into the garage and got my New American Catholic Bible, that one is supposed to be in everyday modern American English. The title line above Revelation 1:4 is, “II LETTERS TO THE CHURCHES OF ASIA” and says the seven spirits before the throne the same as the KJV Bible. Remember, John is addressing the seven churches in Asia with whom he had a personal relationship with. The reference to the “seven spirits which are before the throne” speaks of the spiritual power of the Holy Spirit. Consequently, the seven churches each had the power of the Holy Spirit.

That is not the Apocalypse, but when someone mentions the Letter and the Spirit they usually are pointing toward the Apocalypse that John prophesized following the Letters.

I’m interest in how you interpret the letters to the churches?

Richard

hi guys,probably a bit late now but the reason the altar faces east is because of the resurection-i only just asked a priest about it 2weeks ago when i stayed with them,because i noted that sometimes church’s(even old ones)dont face east-or it seems that way (because i dont carry a compass).he siad that most church alters face east if the can.i think it was somthing about the sun rising in the east,as will the Son of Man and also,i cant remember where it is in the bible,but its read in the week after easter,there is that bit about two apostles going to a village and they meet Our Lord on the way,but they dont know its Him and then He brakes bread and they know its Him-i think that had something about the east in it too because the Bishop talked about it in his homily.

i thought the “seven spirits” were those spirits that stood before the throne of God-ie:angels or certain saints(like elija) because Rapheal says “…i am one of the seven…” doesnt he? and it kind of makes more sense since the Holy Spirit is God and therefore He is on the throne,not before it.is that what your talking about?i think i read your post too fast and didnt understand it correctly.

wait…no i did read it the way you ment it-the seven spirits are those St Rapheal refurs to.why dont you try find official Chirch teaching on who “the seven” are,that might help.and the “apocolypse”(i have really bad spelling by the way) is more of a protestant word and reference to the end of the world,i think, and Catholic teaching is Catholic (universal) and doesnt change depending on what city you are in as it does with the majority of protestants who seem like thay can agree on nothing-even the nature of God,some of them deny the Holy Spirit as God,others think Jesus was only man or only God and all sorts of crazy stuff.ANYWAY…(sorry bit off track) i think its a word not often used by the Church

I’m not sure what exactly you want but in any case, I made this list of the passages of the Revelation/Apocalypse used in the Mass subdivided according to the various parts.

Introit:
5: 9-10 –July 1 (Precious Blood)
5:12, 1:6 - Kingship OLJC
12:1 – August 15 (Assumption BVM)
21:2 – Feb 27 (Appar. BVM (Lourdes) )

Epistles:
1:1-5 – May 8 (Appar. St. Michael)
1:1-5 – September 29 (Dedication of St. Michael)
4:1-5 –December 28 (Holy innocents)
5:6-12 –October 31 (Vigil of All Saints) *
5:11-14 – Votive of the Angels for Tuesday
7:2-12 – November 1 (All Saints)
7:13-17 – September 22 (St. Maurice) **
11:13-17 – August 9 (St. Emigdius) ***
11:19, 12:1, 10 – Feb 11- Appar. BVM (Lourdes)
12: 1, 5, 14-16 – November 27 (BVM Miraculous Medal) ***
14:13 – November 2 (Third Mass of All Souls and if a daily Mass for the dead is offered)
19:1-9 – May 10 (Ss. Gordon and Epimachus) **
21:2-5 – Dedication of a Church (and its Anniversary)

Gradual/Tract/Alleluia
5:9 (Precious Blood: votive in Eastertide)
7: 14(Common of Martyr non Virgins) ***
12:11 (Common of Virgin Martyrs) ***
12:11-12 (Common of Martyr non Virgins in Eastertide) ***
19: 6 (Kingship OLJC: Votive in Eastertide)
22:16-17 – (Votive of BVM Med. of all graces in Septuagesima/ Lent) ***

Offertory
8:3, 4 is used on
–March 24 (St. Gabriel)
– May 8 (Appar. St. Michael) *
– September 29 (Dedication of St. Michael)
– October 24 (St. Raphael)
– Votive of the Angels for Tuesday

Communion
3:20 – Feb 27 (St. Gabriel of the Sorrowful Virgin)
3:21 – June 5 (St. Boniface)

  • Not in the General Calendar 1962
    ** Mass is customarily not said as on the General Calendar they are commemorations
    *** Pro aliquibus locis – not observed/allowed universally

Going by the reference you provided earlier (Rev 1:4), September 29 may be what you are looking for. The passage in the Mass reads

In diebus illus: Significavit Deus quae oportet fieri cito mi
mittens per angelum suum servo suo Iohanni, qui testimonium perhibuit verbo Dei et testimonium Iesu Christi quaecumque vidit.
Beatus qui legit et qui audiunt verba prophetiae et servant ea quae in ea scripta sunt tempus enim prope est. Iohannes septem ecclesiis quae sunt in Asia. Gratia vobis et pax ab eo qui est et qui erat et qui venturus est et a septem spiritibus qui in conspectu throni eius sunt et ab Iesu Christo qui est testis fidelis primogenitus mortuorum et princeps regum terrae qui dilexit nos et lavit nos a peccatis nostris in sanguine suo

In those days God made known the things which must shortly come to pass, and signified, sending by His angel to His servant John, who hath given testimony to the word of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ, what things soever He hath seen. Blessed is he that readeth and heareth the words of this prophecy, and keepeth those things which are written in it. For the time is at hand. John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you and peace from Him that is, and that was, and that is to come, and from the seven spirits which are before His throne, and from Jesus Christ, Who is the faithful witness, the first-begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth, Who hath loved us, and washed us from our sins, in His own blood.

I’m not sure what exactly you want but in any case, I made this list of the passages of the Revelation/Apocalypse used in the Mass subdivided according to the various parts.

Introit:
5: 9-10 –July 1 (Precious Blood)
5:12, 1:6 - Kingship OLJC
12:1 – August 15 (Assumption BVM)
21:2 – Feb 27 (Appar. BVM (Lourdes) )

Epistles:
1:1-5 – May 8 (Appar. St. Michael)
1:1-5 – September 29 (Dedication of St. Michael)
4:1-5 –December 28 (Holy innocents)
5:6-12 –October 31 (Vigil of All Saints) *
5:11-14 – Votive of the Angels for Tuesday
7:2-12 – November 1 (All Saints)
7:13-17 – September 22 (St. Maurice) **
11:13-17 – August 9 (St. Emigdius) ***
11:19, 12:1, 10 – Feb 11- Appar. BVM (Lourdes)
12: 1, 5, 14-16 – November 27 (BVM Miraculous Medal) ***
14:13 – November 2 (Third Mass of All Souls and if a daily Mass for the dead is offered)
19:1-9 – May 10 (Ss. Gordon and Epimachus) **
21:2-5 – Dedication of a Church (and its Anniversary)

Gradual/Tract/Alleluia
5:9 (Precious Blood: votive in Eastertide)
7: 14(Common of Martyr non Virgins) ***
12:11 (Common of Virgin Martyrs) ***
12:11-12 (Common of Martyr non Virgins in Eastertide) ***
19: 6 (Kingship OLJC: Votive in Eastertide)
22:16-17 – (Votive of BVM Med. of all graces in Septuagesima/ Lent) ***

Offertory
8:3, 4 is used on
–March 24 (St. Gabriel)
– May 8 (Appar. St. Michael) *
– September 29 (Dedication of St. Michael)
– October 24 (St. Raphael)
– Votive of the Angels for Tuesday

Communion
3:20 – Feb 27 (St. Gabriel of the Sorrowful Virgin)
3:21 – June 5 (St. Boniface)

  • Not in the General Calendar 1962
    ** Mass is customarily not said as on the General Calendar they are commemorations
    *** Pro aliquibus locis – not observed/allowed universally

Going by the reference you provided earlier (Rev 1:4), September 29 may be what you are looking for. The passage in the Mass reads

In diebus illis: Significavit Deus quae oportet fieri cito mittens per angelum suum servo suo Iohanni, qui testimonium perhibuit verbo Dei et testimonium Iesu Christi quaecumque vidit.Beatus qui legit et qui audiunt verba prophetiae et servant ea quae in ea scripta sunt tempus enim prope est.

Iohannes septem ecclesiis quae sunt in Asia. Gratia vobis et pax ab eo qui est et qui erat et qui venturus est: et a septem spiritibus qui in conspectu throni eius sunt: et ab Iesu Christo qui est testis fidelis primogenitus mortuorum et princeps regum terrae qui dilexit nos et lavit nos a peccatis nostris in sanguine suo

In those days: God made known the things which must shortly come to pass, and signified, sending by His angel to His servant John, who hath given testimony to the word of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ, what things soever He hath seen. Blessed is he that readeth and heareth the words of this prophecy, and keepeth those things which are written in it. For the time is at hand.

John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you and peace from Him that is, and that was, and that is to come, and from the seven spirits which are before His throne, and from Jesus Christ, Who is the faithful witness, the first-begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth, Who hath loved us, and washed us from our sins, in His own blood.

Yes, I have pondered whether one of the spirits before the throne was Elijah because that prophet was the grandest and most romantic character that Israel ever had. However, when Jesus died He called out in a loud voice, “E’-ll, E’-ll, la’-ma sa-bach-tha-ni?” (Matthew 27: 46) Some thought that He call out to a man named, “Elias”. (Matthew 27: 47)

The catch there is that Elias is the Greek form of Elijah, and of course like Matthew’s Gospel says, Jesus call out, “E’-ll, E’-ll, la’-ma sa-bach-tha-ni?” , and not to Elias.

That doesn’t mean that Elijah isn’t one of the spirits before the throne, but I need more biblical reference to support that Elijah is one of those sever before the throne. I hope you can find it. Very interesting.

Richard

Thanks a million for that post. Now I got something that I can get my teeth into. :slight_smile: That will keep me busy for a while, don’t go away.

Thanks again;

Richard

yeah,that was yet another mistake of the jews,i know he said “My God,My God,why Hast Thou forsaken Me” and thats because He was showing that He was human as well as God,because the Son never left the throne in heaven.thats actually a pretty complex theological quote that there are many books written on.the reason i said elija might be one of the seven is because he was/is so great.we know for sure that St Rapheal is one of them,to know who the others are would require some research into official Church thinking and teaching-its somthing ive wanted to know for a while so i might look into who the seven are.at the stage St Rapheal mentioned it they may have all been angels but as time on earth progressed and souls were created the souls of certain saints may have taken the place of the ever humble and obediant angels-like elija,mary,john the baptist,st joseph or others.but again-really need to find church teaching because i do not have the office/authority to make interpretation and neither does anybody else but a group of catholic bishops

Okay, I’ll go down the archangel path with you, but remember that I still believe that the seven spirits before the throne are the Holy Spirit at the seven churches of Asia.

There actually are seven archangels in Judaism, but only Michael is mentioned in the Book of Daniel. (Daniel 12: 1) and of course, Gabriel is also mentioned in scriptures and are canonical by all Christians. [That makes 2] Then Raphael is mentioned in the Book of Tobit (Tobet 12: 11-22) which is accepted as canonical by Catholics and Orthodox. [That makes 3] The four others, however, are named in the 2nd century BC Book of Enoch (chapter 21) and they are Ariel, Raguel, Sariel, and Jarahmeel. [That makes 7]

Here is the catch: In my opinion, the Book of Enoch is not canonical, so getting Catholics or Protestants to agree that the seven spirits before the throne in (Revelation 1: 4) are from the book of Enoh, well, I will let you make that decision.

The seven archangels of Judaism are a good topic for this thread, because the Book of Tobit is generally accepted as Jewish folklore. Remember, that type of folklore is very powerful and has a lot of religious truth behind it’s story. But, it is also enjoyable reading like other folklore. Actually, the stories were told over a campfire. When you ask a priest about it, try to find out if the Catholics accept the 4 other archangels in the Book of Enoh, chapter 21? If they do, then that would give you a boost with your archangel theory.

A good test would be to read through Revelation Chapters 2 and 3, and everywhere it says spirit replace it with either the name of one of the Archangels or Holy Spirit. It sounds a lot better to me with Holy Spirit. Hope you get back to me, and let me know your conclusion.

Richard

Okay, now I’m wondering whether or not you are using computer software to sort out Revelation/Apocalypse from the 1962 Missal, because you missed the letter and the spirit in today’s Epistle? (Sunday August 19th)

I just returned from a Tridentine High Mass in Latin for (The Twelfth Sunday after Pentecost) and the Epistle for today was (II Corinthians 3: 4-9). Here is one of the passages in that verse, “Who also hath made us fit ministers of the new testament, not in the letter, but in the spirit: For the letter killeth, but the spirit quickeneth.” I don’t know what bible the Christ the King Sovereign Priests use, and that quote was from the Propers for the Mass that the usher handed me today.

The Propers give the Latin for (II Corinthians 3: 4-9) next to the English. Is there a Latin word with a double meaning for Apocalypse on that side? Because, the letters to the seven churches in Revelation Chapters 2 & 3 start with commendation and then a complaint, followed by the possibility of judgment.

Because of this topic being part of today’s traditional Latin Mass, it’s timely. Anybody, what is your take on this? The letter and the spirit?

No, for my age, I’m very computer illiterate. I used the old fashioned method :stuck_out_tongue: of looking through my 1954 hand missal and typing the references wherever I saw “Apoc.” in the headings. Then I arranged them.

Thanks for stopping by, and thanks for all the hard work. You are a true friend. Most of these forum threads are centered around Church Law and Church Politics with the Eucharist being the only thing spiritual obtained during Mass.

Last Sunday’s “Twelfth Sunday after Pentecost” Tridentine Mass presented a lot of topics for traditional Catholics to ponder and to witness for this week. It would require a lot of searching the 1962 Missal, like you have done, and of course, plenty of searching the scriptures and comparing the Latin words.

It will take a lot of prayer to get our church politicians to study hard like you, and simply be a doer of the Word.

What Bible version are you using? Mine (the 1970 NAB) has ‘presiding spirit of the church of N.’ but the Greek text (and other translations) have ‘aggelon’, angel; even the footnote admits that ‘presiding spirit’ is literally ‘angel’. 2: 7 is the one that refers to the Holy Spirit. So when the NAB refers to ‘presiding spirit’, it was actually ‘angel’.

As for 4: 5, it mentions ‘spirits’, ‘pneumata’ (plural). 5: 6 also has the same.

I am using the King James Version, and I am a theologian hobbyist. I enjoy doing this stuff, and it’s not meant it challenge the authority of the church. During Bible College the Book of Revelation is the most advanced course saved for last. As you have seen in some of my previous post, I believe that folklore is significant.

This is my take, and remember, don’t let it influence your faith unless the Spirit guides you in that direction. John was the beloved disciple, the brother of James, and son of Zebedee, so they all knew one another and understood the revelations that John presented to them. A lot better than we do today. I use Paul’s letter to the Philippians a lot while trying to understand the seven angles and seven spirits in John’s vision. When I read verse one of Revelation it says to me that the Book of Revelation had its own origin in the mind of God, It was given to Jesus Christ, who revealed it to John. (verse 1)

In (Revelation 1: 9-20) though John’s vision Jesus himself identified the Seven stars as angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks as the seven churches. It follows that all the way though Chapters 2 and 3 the letters to the seven churches were addressed to the angel of that church, who naturally, was the pastor of that church. (The Greek word translated “angels” primarily means messengers and has reference to the pastors of the seven churches.) Now, in each one of the seven letters there is this passage, “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches” (Rev. 2: 17) Remember, it is Jesus speaking through a revelation to John.

Now getting back to the seven spirits before the throne, I have a hard time accepting them as angles, whether they be the seven archangels of Judaism or the seven pastors of the seven churches. I assume that the seven spirits are the spiritual perfection and completeness of the presence and power of the Holy Spirit, because of each of the seven letter stating, “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches”. I can’t imagine an angle being that spirit, because of Satan and his angles rebelling against God.

(Phil. 2: 15 and Phil. 2: 16) for the stars as pastors.

What is your take?

People make up stuff all the time.

Most people have no knowledge of the meaning of the Latin roots of English-language words.

From time to time I have gotten in trouble by the correct use of words which someone or other had “spun” to mean something different (and negative).

So I have had to purchase a whole shelf of books such as Webster’s Dictionary of Synonyms and Antonyms (which is EXCELLENT and a fabulous read, by the way)… And Rodale’s book, which is called [if I recall properly] “Word Finder”.

So that over the years I could develop a repertoire of 'mini-lecturettes" on the origins, roots, and meanings of various words.

Building a home reference library is worth it for everyone. Young children LOVE digging in to those kinds of books.

One place where I worked when I was young, the PRESIDENT of the company took exception to the punctuation I used around the word: “however”. A senior VP agreed with me. You have NO IDEA what happened after that… these two guys went at it for a WHOLE DAY.

The whole thing ended with everyone laughing and we talked about it for YEARS! A couple of days later, my direct boss gave me a copy of Strunk & White’s fabulous little book “Elements of Style”. Outstanding book to start your reference shelf with.

Addendum:

I made a mistake and left out the fact that the Book of Revelation is book of Signs. Some Pentecostals have made a mockery out of signs and wonders pulling the wool over our eyes. That‘s why I avoided the sign of the seven spirits before the throne as being the Hole Spirit in Verse 4.

Basically, Jesus sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John. (Rev. 1: 1) The first four letters of “signified” is sign, and that is exactly what the Book of Revelation is. A good example is the seven stars being the seven angles of the seven churches, the seven golden candlesticks being the seven churches as identified by Jesus through revelation to John.

That brings us up to the sign of the Holy Spirit presented as the seven spirits before the throne.

Thus, through signs, I can understand of what has been revealed, but not to be confused with the signs and wonders of some Pentecostals.

Please return to the topic or I will have to close the thread. Thank you.

Don’t be ridiculous! Of course there were no “curses” in the Latin Mass; however, there were absolutely beautiful words said or sung…There was nothing as peaceful or as beautiful as hearing the Mass in Latin.

You mean, “Outstanding book with which to start your reference shelf.” :tsktsk:

:smiley:

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.