Daily Mass & Charlemagne


#1

I was watching the show, “Who Do You Think You Are…” :

tlc.com/tv-shows/who-do-you-think-you-are/videos/cindy-crawford-a-shocking-connection.htm

and turns out that Cindy Crawford is a descendant of Charlemagne.

Cindy’s people who came to America practiced the Quaker religion and they didn’t mention what if any religion she practices now.

The episode mentioned that Charlemagne died in 814 and that the last days of his life he spent going to daily Mass.

My question is when did the Catholic Church start celebrating daily Mass?

She did say she can’t wait to learn more about Charlemagne…maybe she will convert to Catholicism?

If this thread belongs somewhere else, feel free to move it. The Water Cooler? Thanks.


#2

The liturgy of the Mass has been celebrated long before Charlemagne. Starting with the Last Supper, the first Mass, as it was conducted by the High Priest of the Church, Jesus.

Catholic Answers has a tract on the institution of the Mass. The Catholic Encyclopedia has a thorough document that provides some answers to the origins.

My **son **is a descendent of Charlemagne based on some genealogical work done. Given the breadth of how genetics work and how genealogy is weighted to those who could afford to be counted or have a historical responsibility to be counted, it’s not surprising. I don’t expect to see my son wearing purple or a crown anytime soon. :slight_smile:


#3

Pax Christi!

Somewhere I read that pretty much everyone of European descent is a descendant of Charlemagne, even if we can’t trace it back directly. This is probably true of a lot of famous people, if they had children and lived long ago. Yup, Attila the Hun, too.

God bless.


#4

Since everyone has 2 parent, 4 grandparents, 8 great grandparents, etc., by the time you get back 20 generations, everyone has more than a million ancestors. 30 generations is more a billion ancestors. Charlesmagne is a bit further back than even that, closer to 35 generations.

The math makes it likely that Charlesmagne is an ancestor of most people around today


#5

Different times in different places. In St Augustine’s North Africa (c400AD) Mass was celebrated daily. It became a common practice in Charlemagne’s Western Europe some time in the 7th century.
At a guess I would say the practice began in the monasteries, and then spread from there to the parishes.


#6

Well technically the earliest Christians did as described in Act 2:46 - speaks of them being devoted to the Lord’s Supper and the communal life since they were outcasts and they would meet in the temple to hear scripture read, then communion (breaking of the bread) in secret in their homes…

usccb.org/bible/acts/2

46 Every day they devoted themselves to meeting together in the temple area and to breaking bread in their homes.


#7

Thank you for reminding me about Jesus instituting the Sacraments of the Eucharist and the Priesthood at the Last Supper. BTW, great article “Institution of the Mass” thanks for sharing it - I have bookmarked it. Sometimes those that we are trying to show the truth in Jesus’ One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church discover that truth not by the words that we speak but by an article that they can read and reflect on privately and in prayer.


#8

So I guess pretty much the majority of people who practice one of the 33,000 Protestant denominations are descendants of someone who was Catholic?


#9

It would be far more awesome to trace my linage back to say like one of the Pope’s or the first Apostles than Charlemagne. I’m sure those ancestry services charge a fee but it would be fun to see how far back a person could trace their family ancestors.


#10

Good point about Mass being celebrated in “Different times in different places.” I try to remind myself that God revealed Himself a little bit at a time and continues to do so until the end of time.


#11

Thanks for the link - that is an important verse in Scripture!

Acts 2:46
“Every day they devoted themselves to meeting together in the temple area and to breaking bread in their homes. They ate their meals with exultation and sincerity of heart”

I just have one question maybe you could answer for me and I ask this because I know when I bring this up to the person I’m trying to show that when we read in Scripture the words, “breaking bread” it means that they were celebrating the Eucharist and they in turn are going to say than why doesn’t it say that word - Eucharist. This is the type of person who follows “sola Scriptura” If it doesn’t say it in the Bible - there is no such thing. I of course know this is silly - but how do you get the point across to stubborn people!?


#12

Well, first the word Eucharist is Greek and it means, if I’m not mistaken “Thanksgiving”. That is giving thanks to God. Ok, so given that they didn’t use the word Eucharist which I believe was first used by St. Justin Martyr in the 2nd century to describe it to the Roman emporer, they discuss it as the “breaking of the bread”.

Let’s look at Luke’s Gospel and the description from the disciples who were on the road to Emmaus and how they didn’t recognize Jesus until he said Mass (yes that’s what he did!)…

usccb.org/bible/luke/24

29But they urged him, “Stay with us, for it is nearly evening and the day is almost over.” So he went in to stay with them. 30And it happened that, while he was with them at table, he took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them. 31With that their eyes were opened and they recognized him, but he vanished from their sight. 32Then they said to each other, “Were not our hearts burning [within us] while he spoke to us on the way and opened the scriptures to us?” 33So they set out at once and returned to Jerusalem where they found gathered together the eleven and those with them 34who were saying, “The Lord has truly been raised and has appeared to Simon!”q 35Then the two recounted what had taken place on the way and how he was made known to them in the breaking of the bread.

See what happens to them. Those disciples are all of us! We are blind really and full of sorrow and grief, etc. But thru the Eucharist, which is how Jesus stays with us physically, we can see. And we are to do exactly what those disciples did …run and tell everyone. The Mass is about going forth to spread the news of what we learned and experienced.

So if your friend agrees the Last Supper (first Mass btw) was about communion, then they would have to agree that when they are described as recognizing him in the “breaking of the bread” that it is the same thing. Therefore when the early Christians gathered it was for the breaking of the bread.

See what St. Paul says about it a bit earlier in Act 2:42…

42 They devoted themselves to the teaching of the apostles and to the communal life, to the breaking of the bread and to the prayers.

Also St. Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 10:16 - 17…

16The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?l 17Because the loaf of bread is one, we, though many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf

In 1 Corinthians 11…
20 When you meet in one place, then, it is not to eat the Lord’s supper…

and goes on to describe not recognizing that it IS the body of Christ (eh hmm - the real presence! :slight_smile: ) The first part here (23 - 25) describes the tradition being handed on that is transubstantiation…

23* For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread, 24and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 25In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”

26For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes. 27Therefore whoever eats **the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. 28A person should examine himself, and so **eat the bread *and drink the cup. 29For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.

There are plenty of apologetic works out there that describe this much better than I. I’m sure somewhere this is all put together in a document or book. These are just a very few of the scriptures that describe it that I’ve come across and have heard from others. I encourage you to study these scriptures closely prior to any discussion with your friend. Also helping your friend understand The Mass …what is is and what goes on and why, will be helpful.

But I can tell you, that these (and many others) were key scriptures in my study of the faith whereby I found The Catholic Church to be the true Christian church! Never know, you may be witnessing to a future convert :slight_smile:


#13

Pax Christi!

Good point, but there will be duplicate ancestors: there were not billions of people around 1200 years ago. And not everyone in the world has European ancestry. I doubt if I have any Asian or Native American ancestry.

Many European royalty claim they can trace back to Biblical roots. A friend of mine is trying to trace back to some royalty so he can ultimately trace back to Adam and Eve.

Okay, if that floats your boat! (Ark?)

God bless.


#14

Pax Christi!

I’m mixed, myself: half-Adam and half-Eve.

God bless.


#15

I have an ancestry.com account and also belong to onegreatfamily.com. As an adoptee, I never had a clue bout my family background until I connected with my birth mother about 15 years ago. Since then, I have had access to the family tree.

If there happens to be any kind of “noble” family in the mix, there are generally good records. Charlemagne is my 37th great-grandfather through my maternal line, and we can trace it back to his great-great grandfather. Most folks of European descent can likely claim him, as well. William the Conqueror, Henry I of England, & St. Margaret of Scotland are also among my direct ancestors and Lucy Maud Montgomery (Anne of Green Gables) is, more recently, a close cousin. I find ancestor-hunting fascinating, especially as the first blood relative I ever knew was our first daughter!!!


#16

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