Dave's Allegation That Catholics Are Idolators


#1

Originally Posted by oudave

Hi
I’ve seen Catholics kneel before a statue of Mary, thats worshiping.
Dave.


#2

[quote=Church Militant]Originally Posted by oudave
[/quote]

Wow, another anti-Catholic. What are we to do?
smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_50.gif


#3

Dave,

I will kneel before a statue of Mary and pray for you tonight. I humbly ask for Her intercession. May She lay my prayers for you at Her Son’s feet.


#4

Okay oudave let’s try this again…
Read the graven image part of the first commandment here:
Exodus 20:1-5

“1 And the Lord spoke all these words: 2 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:”

It is clear that the prohibition is not iconoclastic as you preach, but based upon the intent of the one making and using the image. Since NO CATHOLIC EVER kneels down before any image to worship it we are not idolators at all. We are not stupid enough to confuse a mass of rock, plaster, metal, or any other created thing with the almighty and ever living God of the Universe. So you can pack up this argument and put it in the garbage can where it rightfully belongs my friend.

This thread is here because this was offtopic on the “Mary as an intercessor” thread, but needed addressing. Dave has so far ignored any attempts to accept answers to this false allegation. Please feel free to enlighten him.
Pax vobiscum,


#5

Well I am not nearly as eloquent as others, nor do I have all the appropriate Bible passages memorized. But I will state that I have never and will never worship Mary as I do The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. I do give Mary the honor she deserves as the mother of God. I do not think this is a bad thing. I mean I also give honor to MY mother, and especially my husband’s mother. It is only right to give the mother of God, in essense, the mother of us all a place of honor.

But to equate honor to worship is just plain wrong. And I’m really tired of people coming here and telling me what’s in my heart and what I believe.

To put it plainly:

I believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.


I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.

With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.

That’s it…

Now you could put forth the lame argument that the creed also mentions Mary, but it only states that Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary. That’s it… The creed also mentions Pontius Pilate, and I certainly don’t worship him either.

Sorry oudave, you’re way off the mark on this one.

And if you still believe that we worship Mary or statues of Mary, go home right now and throw away any Christmas decoration with a Nativity scene in it… because we wouldn’t want you bowing down to it or anything.


#6

Hasn’t this been gone over adnausium?

Mary is in Heaven, she is Full of Grace as the Bible clearly states. All will call her blessed, also in the Bible. She was given to us while Christ was on the cross.

She carried the Word of God, our bread of life, the eternal Priest, our Savior inside of her. She is the living Ark of the Covenant. Who else besides the rest of the Trinity could be closer to Jesus. She points us to Jesus by her example in life and in Heaven. Why the heck wouldn’t we ask her to pray to Jesus for us? Yes, we look at statues when we ask for help, which is a great way to remind us of a fully human person who leads the way to showing us how we should live our lives on this earth. The typology of the Queen Mother is clear in the Old Testament, as Solomon could not refuse his mother anything, neither could Jesus. However, as Jesus is also Mary’s savior and is very close to him, she would never ask for that which would harm us. God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are pure love, they would never want us to come to harm, even though it might take some touch love to get the message of where we should go through our very thick heads…

Very simple, eh?

John


#7

[quote=yochumjy]Hasn’t this been gone over adnausium?

John
[/quote]

I agree, it has. But I will state that these attacks only strengthen my faith, they do not diminish it.


#8

Oudave, once again what you say you see clearly ,is skewed by biggoted eyes,:nope: We do not worship anyone or anything but God:mad: You know,the Holy Trinity:confused: How many times do you have to be told this?Why do you think we are lying?What reason would we have to lie about it?What is the use trying to dialogue with you if you hear nothing we say and slander us in the next breath.This has already been addressed with you, if you don’t want to listen,then it is not going to be worth my time to respond to you,I will pray for you.Shame on you Dave:tsktsk:


#9

[size=5]Hold it![/size]

Topic is the allegation that we are idolators because we kneel before images. That means we are here to answer the heresy of Iconoclasm, not to discuss Mary per se.

Please deal with the charge of Idolatry


#10

[quote=Church Militant][size=5]Hold it![/size]

Topic is the allegation that we are idolators because we kneel before images. That means we are here to answer the heresy of Iconoclasm, not to discuss Mary per se.

Please deal with the charge of Idolatry
[/quote]

Well, now you tell us. When I first read the message, it talked about both Mary and idolatry… I think I actually answered both, even though they were entertwined. I’m not sure you can strictly answer just the idolatry without a supporting argument, such as Mary/Saints actually being in heaven, closer to the Will of God, and more fully in communion with Him. Mary happens to be a beautiful example of this… I will however refrain from focusing just on Mary though.

BTW, does oudave even know this thread exists yet?

John


#11

Does he work for Jack Chick ?

Been a Catholic since the earth’s crust cooled and never “worshipped” Mary or Statues.


#12

I assume those Jews who had the ark present were idolators, too? With all of those cherbim and seraphim clad onto the Ark itself…and don’t forget about the stone tablets, these were icons of God’s word…and the budding staff, etc…


#13

Dave,

Kneeling for a Catholic is simply an act of respect. We kneel because we are humbled by the great sacrifice Our Lady made when she said the ultimate ‘yes’ to God. Her humility and love of God is a model for us all. We believe that she is an integral part of Jesus’s salvific mission.

Kneeling doesn’t equate to worship in the same sense as it applies to worship before God. Mary and all of the other saints are in the presence of God, they are in heaven surrounded by the glory of God. We acknowledge their holiness in light of the special graces God has given them. Kneeling before a statue of Mary or any other saint is not in worship, it is in awe and respect for their holiness. Kneeling before God is out of awe, respect and submission to Him.

I appreciate that as someone who is not a Catholic, you don’t have the cultural background to see the difference. You should appreciate that as well. We know the difference between Mary and God. No one in the Church is forced to this, some people just have a special affinity for Our Lady or some other saint. It doesn’t mean they love and honor God any less, it means that there is something about that particular saint that connects with them.

People like you need to get past all of this idolatry bunk. As with nearly all situations, when you are on the outside looking in, you can’t truly understand. Please, respect our Catholic culture by not trying to hang a label on us that is incorrect as we respect your protestant culture and do not try to force you to honor Mary and our saints.


#14

[quote=yochumjy]Well, now you tell us. When I first read the message, it talked about both Mary and idolatry… I think I actually answered both, even though they were entertwined. I’m not sure you can strictly answer just the idolatry without a supporting argument, such as Mary/Saints actually being in heaven, closer to the Will of God, and more fully in communion with Him. Mary happens to be a beautiful example of this… I will however refrain from focusing just on Mary though.

BTW, does oudave even know this thread exists yet?

John
[/quote]

Sorry John,
I realize that many issues overlap somewhat, but this is on the Iconoclastic argument.

The other issue you refer to is the Intercession of saints and would make a killer thread as well. I suggest you have a look at the “Mary as an intercessor” thread, and perhaps glean some ideas to use in the creation of a new thread since it’s another one that does need answering as well.
Rock on!
Pax vobiscum, :thumbsup:


#15

I do not kneel before any statues because I have sore knees. I will be working up a more serious answer because there is something that I want to find in the Book of Wisdom that addresses directly the meaning of idolatry. I also want to look up some of the other Old Testament Scripture that addresses precisely the kind of thing that brought about God’s wrath.

Maggie


#16

Everybody sing!

“It seems to me I’ve heard that song before…”

Here’s a question I’ve never gotten an answer to, from those who accuse Catholics of worshipping this, that and the other. If we really worship something other than God (say Mary, for instance), then why would we deny it?! I mean, Catholics don’t ever deny that we worship God, so why would we constantly, loudly and without duress deny that we worship Mary if we really did? If we really thought Mary was deserving of worship, and we worshipped her and then turned around and denied to the world that we worshipped her, wouldn’t that just guarantee that our goose would be cooked? What person anywhere truly worships a person or thing, and at the very same time freely and loudly denies that they worship the person or thing? It makes no sense, because it’s not true.

So next time you hear this accusation, ask them back if they would deny they worship God. When they say “of course not, never, under no circumstances!”, then ask them why, in that case, they think Catholics always deny they worship .


#17

[quote=VociMike]Everybody sing!

“It seems to me I’ve heard that song before…”

Here’s a question I’ve never gotten an answer to, from those who accuse Catholics of worshipping this, that and the other. If we really worship something other than God (say Mary, for instance), then why would we deny it?! I mean, Catholics don’t ever deny that we worship God, so why would we constantly, loudly and without duress deny that we worship Mary if we really did? If we really thought Mary was deserving of worship, and we worshipped her and then turned around and denied to the world that we worshipped her, wouldn’t that just guarantee that our goose would be cooked? What person anywhere truly worships a person or thing, and at the very same time freely and loudly denies that they worship the person or thing? It makes no sense, because it’s not true.

So next time you hear this accusation, ask them back if they would deny they worship God. When they say “of course not, never, under no circumstances!”, then ask them why, in that case, they think Catholics always deny they worship .
[/quote]

Thank you! My thoughts exactly. I had a conversation at work with several employees (a baptist, one leaning toward JW, a non denom teenager and myself.) JW says why do you Catholics worship Mary? I say we don’t. He says yes you do. So I say why if I believed in something such as worshipping Mary would I then deny that I do it. If that was my belief that Mary deserved worship I wouldn’t then turn around and deny it. I said I’m Catholic you are not, don’t you think I would know a little better than you what I believed? So then non-denom says why do you say Hail Mary? I say because the angel addressed Mary the same way in the Bible was he worshipping her? Sheesh! This really get’s old sometimes.


#18

Look it up in the dictionary.

idol - a representation or symbol of an object of worship; a false god

graven image - an object of worship carved usually from wood or stone; idol

idolator - a worshiper of idols

Since Catholic Christians do not worship the statues of Mary; since Mary is not a goddess, therefore a false god, by its very definition, Catholic Christians are not idolators.

God Bless,
Maria


#19

I’ve seen Protestants kneeling next to their beds. They must worship mattresses!

:thumbsup:


#20

I can see where you feel that way. But in truth no intelligent person really believes that the carved image of Mary is really her or that she is a deity for that matter.

                      Many years ago in some Protestant churches they had a large bible set upon a podium and you would kneel before the podium and pray and read the bile selection. No one considered that the person was worshiping the bible. 

                     Crosses, carved images of religious figures, whether Mary, Jesus, the empty cross, the crucifix are just reminders of who we are placing our minds and prayers to. That's all.

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