Death by Crucifixion vs. Mother of God


#1

Intriguing title, eh? Sorry bout that…

We call Mary the mother of God. She is not the mother of the human part of Jesus, because you cannot separate Jesus’s godness from his humanness. She is the mother of God.

A while ago, while browsing the Ask an Apologist forum, I saw a topic that said “Did God die at the crucifixion?” and the answer basically said that while Jesus’s human body died, God did not die.

So I’m confused. The “mother of God” thing says Jesus cannot be separated, but the crucifixion thing seems to say he can.


#2

What is death?
It is the separation of the human body from the human soul.

Jesus, as man, had a human body and a human soul.

Jesus, as God, fully possessed the Divine Nature.

Who is Jesus? The Second Person of the Trinity.

Jesus, as man, certainly did die. His human body ceased functioning, and his human soul separated from it. That is death.

Jesus, as God, retains his Divine Nature eternally.
In becoming man, in taking on a human nature, it became possible for Jesus to die.
That was why He came into the world.
But death means nothing to His divine nature.


#3

I am pretty sure that when Jesus died on the cross, God the Son, the Second Person of the Trinity, died, that is, He experienced a human death, the separation of his human soul from his human body.


#4

This is what I believe:

The Person Jesus has two natures: God and human.

Mary gave birth to a person - not a nature.

God came down to earth as a human being in the Person Jesus. This is known as God incarnated.

When at the cross God incarnated died, it was the human part (nature) that died.

God’s nature is immortal - so God did not die.

Hope this makes sense.


#5

Still a little confused…

Mary gave birth to a Person with two natures (one human, one divine). The crucifixion was the death of only one nature.

Is that right?


#6

I would respectfully disagree with the AAA answer, because I agree with the reasoning below.

  1. At the Crucifixion
    a. Jesus’ human nature died on the cross.
    b. Only the human person of Jesus, not the divine person of Jesus, died on the cross.
    c. God died on the cross.
    d. Jesus’ human and divine natures both died on the cross, but the universe was kept going by the Father and the Holy Spirit until Jesus’ Resurrection.
    e. None of the above.

    Question 15
    a. Wrong, because natures aren’t put to death–persons are. When you die, it is not your human nature which dies, but you as a distinct person.
    b. Wrong, because there is no human person in Jesus. There is only one Person, the divine, who already (by definition) had a divine nature and who took on a human nature.
    c. Correct, because the Person who died on the cross was a divine Person, commonly called the Son of God. Since that Person is God, it is proper to say God died on the cross, even though that sounds odd and may make some unthinking people conclude that it means that God ceased to exists, which, of course, was not the case. (If you were sure this answer could not be right, don’t fret–you’re in good company. Most people miss this question because the correct answer “just doesn’t sound right.”)
    d. Wrong, first because natures don’t die, persons do, and second because the answer suggest Jesus couldn’t keep the universe going, as though he ceased to be God between the time of his death and his Resurrection.
    e. Wrong, because 15c is correct.
    [RIGHT]The World’s Toughest Catholic Quiz
    By Karl Keating[/RIGHT]

tee


#7

From the Ecumenical Council of Ephesus:

  1. If anyone does not confess that the Word of God suffered in the flesh and was crucified in the flesh and tasted death in the flesh and became the first born of the dead, although as God he is life and life-giving, let him be anathema.

#8

[quote=cardenio]Still a little confused…

Mary gave birth to a Person with two natures (one human, one divine). The crucifixion was the death of only one nature.

Is that right?
[/quote]

Mary gave birth to a human (form) and not gave birth to a God, though Jesus is both human and a God still Mary gave birth to the human Jesus. God can never be born out of human. Human begets human.

The role of Mary as Mother can never be changed. Jesus Christ though Human still is a God. So Mary became the Mother of both Human and Divine Jesus.

I think your point here is that Mary is the Mother of Human Jesus and not the Divine jesus eh? I think that will make sense eh? But Lets think that Jesus was born not just as human in nature but also divine in nature. Though she didnt deliver a Jesus in divine form but still Jesus has the divine nature so that makes her a Mother of God.

If A symbolizes human and B divine nature. Jesus Christ is both AB. Mary didnt gave birth to A only but both A and B. That makes her the Mother of A and B.


#9

Let me clarify my answer.
Who died on the Cross? Jesus.
Who is the person Jesus? Jesus is the 2nd Person of the Trinity.

So if we can say that Mary is the Mother of God,
then we can also say that God died on the cross.
It is the same *Person * in either case.

Natures don’t have mothers.
Natures don’t die.

Persons have mothers. Persons die.

The only caveat is that when I say that God died on the cross, it says nothing about the Father or the Holy Spirit, and it says nothing about the Divine Nature, which is always and eternally existing. The Divine Nature does not die.


#10

Having now poked around the AAA forum, I must amend this:

[quote=tee_eff_em]I would respectfully disagree with the AAA answer
[/quote]

Amended:
I respectfully disagree with cardenio’s interpretation of the answer given in AAA.

I presume you were referring to this thread: [thread=63739]Did God die at the Crucifixion?[/thread] ? I do not infer “while Jesus’s human body died, God did not die” from the apologist’s answer. (Though I might still think the answer could have been made plainer)

tee


#11

Maybe this will help…?

Jesus is God. Mary is the mother of Jesus. Mary is the mother of God. If the first two statements are true, and they are, the third statement must also be true. That’s basic logic.Of course, when we say that Mary is the mother of God, we don’t mean that Mary existed before God. What we mean is that the immortal Second Divine Person of the Trinity, God the Son, eternally begotten of God the Father, chose to united Himself to a human nature (a human body and an human soul) about 2000 years ago within the reproductive system of the Virgin Mary and His human nature grew and developed within her womb until nine months later He experienced human birth of the Virgin Mary and was named Jesus.

Jesus is God. Jesus died on the Cross. God died on the Cross. If the first two statements are true, and they are, the third statement must also be true. That’s basic logic.Of couse, when we say that God died, we don’t mean that God ceased to exist. What we mean is that the immortal Second Divine Person of the Trinity, God the Son, eternally begotten of the Father, who chose to united Himself to a human nature (a human body and a human soul) about 2000 years ago and who experienced human birth of the Virgin Mary, some thirty-three years later also experienced human death on the Cross when His human soul separated from His human body.


#12

A Person who is God died a human death on the Cross.

God died. It is the amazing fact of our faith. God’s human body seperated from God’s human blood and human soul…although all three remained united to the Second Divine Person, and none of them were destroyed or annihalated, especially not the Divine Nature.

But because of what is called the “communicatio idiomatum” of attributes ( newadvent.org/cathen/04169a.htm ) the hypostatic Divine Person of Jesus Christ is the subject of any actions carried out under either the human nature or divine nature.

God died. He died a human death as a God-Man. That doesn’t mean that the Divinity ceased to exist or was mutable. It just means, that because of the hypostatic union, God was the ontological subject of a crucifixion.


closed #13

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