Death on the Cross


#1

When Christ spoke to the thief on the cross He said" I tell you solemnly this day you will be with me in Paradise".
Did He mean that they would meet that very day or was He merely telling the thief on that day that someday they would meet in Paradise
I believe that He meant the latter because the Creed tells me that He descended into Hell
.Am I right or wrong?
www.catholicprayergroup.net


#2

[quote="Weissystems, post:1, topic:331512"]
When Christ spoke to the thief on the cross He said" I tell you solemnly this day you will be with me in Paradise".
Did He mean that they would meet that very day or was He merely telling the thief on that day that someday they would meet in Paradise
I believe that He meant the latter because the Creed tells me that He descended into Hell
.Am I right or wrong?
www.catholicprayergroup.net

[/quote]

I have understood it to mean that the descent into Hell or the place of the dead or Sheol is the rescue of the Saints who awaited the conquest of Satan who held the power of death. Christ conquered Satan on the cross and in the same way He descended and so conquered the Earthly powers He also descended and made spectacle of the Satanic powers as well.

And so the descent is not a further punishment but instead an affirmation of the conquest of what Christ has already won on the cross.

The punishment, as it were, or the bitter cup was the cross. God's wrath against the sin of all men is satisfied on the cross and so we understand Christ's words, "It is finished."

Therefore the thief, being a soul rescued by the cross, I think did join Christ in paradise and so shall we all who cling to His word and sacrament by grace through faith.


#3

In Jewish terminology of the times, paradise was understood to refer to the natural paradise of the saints, a place that was emptied upon Christ’s resurrection. So Christ meant that the thief would that day be in the paradise described.


#4

Since this man had been a thief, would he not have had to go through some purgation before being allowed into heaven?:confused:


#5

Hi Weiss,

Let’s keep in mind that in the other world there is no time, therefore no before or after. Before the death of Christ, as after, the good went to heaven and the bad went to hell. In the parable of the richman, the beggar goes to a place of happiness (the bosom of Abraham = heaven) and the rich man goes to a place of unhappiness (hell). Those who were saved were saved by virtue of the merits of Christ to come, just as Our Lady was preserved from original sin in the same way.

So the good thief did go to heaven on that very day.

As for descending into hell, in Latin infernum, in Hebrew, sheol, it just means to die. It is used in the creed to convey that Christ really died and that his resurrection was a true resurrection from the dead. This is most important as the resurrection is the central truth of our faith.

Verbum


#6

[quote="Verbum, post:5, topic:331512"]
Hi Weiss,

Let's keep in mind that in the other world there is no time, therefore no before or after. Before the death of Christ, as after, the good went to heaven and the bad went to hell. In the parable of the richman, the beggar goes to a place of happiness (the bosom of Abraham = heaven) and the rich man goes to a place of unhappiness (hell). Those who were saved were saved by virtue of the merits of Christ to come, just as Our Lady was preserved from original sin in the same way.

So the good thief did go to heaven on that very day.

As for descending into hell, in Latin infernum, in Hebrew, sheol, it just means to die. It is used in the creed to convey that Christ really died and that his resurrection was a true resurrection from the dead. This is most important as the resurrection is the central truth of our faith.

Verbum

[/quote]

I cannot recite the Apostles creed as it is now. I don't see what was wrong with it prior to the change in the Mass in 2011. The Creed then said Jesus descended to the dead ( not to hell). I tune it out whenever I hear it and say that "Jesus descended TO THE DEAD" It wasn't broke so why did they have to "fix" it!:mad::confused: My dislike for the current version of the Apostles Creed is from when I was a Protestant and hearing some of those "Word Faith " preachers. They taught that Jesus went to hell and engaged satan in hand to hand combat in order to free souls so He could take them to heaven. So no justification that I will accept will encourage me to adapt the way the Apostles Creed is currently said!


#7

Hell is just a generic word in English for underworld and is the best translation of the Latin inferos. There’s nothing wrong with the current creed translation.


#8

Is there anything wrong with the previous translation?


#9

I do not know exactly what the old translation of the Creed was, but from seeing other versions than than the one said at mass, I can hazard a guess. The Latin here states, “descendit ad inferos tertia die resurrexit a mortuis,” i.e. “he descended into hell; on the third day, he rose from the dead.” You see there are two directions given: where he descended to and where he rose from. The translations that say that he descended to the dead usually omit where he rose from. There are other places where words are added and omitted as well. The current translation is more faithful to the Latin liturgical text.


#10

It would have been splendid if I’d never gotten involved with the likes of Kenneth Hagin, the Copelands, Joel Osteen, and the like.


#11

Goes like this:I believe in God the Father Almighty creator of heaven and earth. I believe in Jesus Christ his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the HOLY SPIRIT, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified,died and was buried. He descended to the dead. On the third day He rose again. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.


#12

Before the death and resurrection of Christ the gates of Heaven were closed. Prior to that nobody was in Heaven.


#13

[quote="LegoGE1947, post:4, topic:331512"]
Since this man had been a thief, would he not have had to go through some purgation before being allowed into heaven?:confused:

[/quote]

Remembering that the pre-Ressurection paradise was natural, rather than supernatural, it would not seem that purging of every stain of sin would be necessary, so I could see him going directly to paradise since he was probably repentant of all of his sins.


#14

[quote="LegoGE1947, post:11, topic:331512"]
Goes like this:

[/quote]

This is the Latin text, copied from the Laudate iPhone app.

Credo in Deum Patrem omnipoténtem, Creatórem cæli et terræ. Et in Iesum Christum, Fílium eius únicum, Dóminum nostrum, qui conceptus est de Spíritu Sancto, natus ex María Vírgine, passus sub Póntio Pilato, crucifíxus, mórtuus, et sepúltus, descéndit ad ínfernos, tértia die resurréxit a mortuis, ascéndit ad cælos, sedet ad déxteram Dei Patris omnipoténtis, inde ventúrus est iudicáre vivos et mórtuos. Credo in Spíritum Sanctum, sanctam Ecclésiam cathólicam, sanctórum communiónem, remissiónem peccatórum, carnis resurrectiónem, vitam ætérnam. Amen.

I will bold the parts of the old translation that are added and insert what is missing.

I believe in God the Father Almighty creator of heaven and earth. [And] I believe in Jesus Christ his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of **the HOLY SPIRIT, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified,died and was buried. He descended to the [abode of the] dead. On the third day He rose again [from the dead]. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of [God] the Father [Almighty]. [From there] He will come **again to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

That is not to say that the old translation was doctrinally errant, but it was a less literal representation.


#15

Owing to some of the stupid teaching I received as a Protestant, I don’t feel comfortable saying it any other way than how I learned it when I became Catholic 12 years ago. That would be the translation I have learned to love prior to 2011 when the Mass was newly translated.


#16

I can understand that. I detest the practice of singing Protestant hymns at mass. It really leaves a foul taste in my mouth. You could always try attending the EF on Sundays, if there is one available to you, where they only say the Nicene Creed.


#17

Hi Thisle,

Before the death and resurrection of Christ the gates of Heaven were closed. Prior to that nobody was in Heaven.

How do you figure that? Time is the measure of motion. In the world of spirits, there are no bodies, therefore no motion. .Before" and “prior” do not exist in the spiritual world. If such words are used, it is to help our limited minds.

Verbum


#18

[quote="Verbum, post:17, topic:331512"]
Hi Thisle,

Before the death and resurrection of Christ the gates of Heaven were closed. Prior to that nobody was in Heaven.

How do you figure that? Time is the measure of motion. In the world of spirits, there are no bodies, therefore no motion. .Before" and "prior" do not exist in the spiritual world. If such words are used, it is to help our limited minds.

Verbum

[/quote]

The angels and the saints do not exist in either an eternal now, or in a temporaneous state. Rather, they exist in aveternity, which is an intermediate state. Therefore they are not incapable of experiencing change, rather they are incapable of experiencing intrinsic change (i.e. change originating from within themselves), yet they are capable of experiencing change as a result of external events (such as the atonement).


#19

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