Debate over gun control, mental health starts anew

cbsnews.com/news/santa-barbara-massacre-mental-illness-and-access-to-guns/

Elliot Rodger’s rampage Friday is the latest in a growing list of mass killings that highlight the complicated intersection of mental illness and access to guns. The killing spree followed a host of red flags and has again raised the question: What can be done to prevent such tragedies?

“The truth is it may be a failure for all of us. We are not doing enough to help our mentally ill, there is no doubt,” constitutional law professor and Second Amendment expert Adam Winkler told CBS News.

“We are making it too easy for people who are mentally ill to get access to guns. It’s just very difficult to know exactly what would be the rule to put in place that would avoid some of these horrendous killings”

If mentally ill, what diagnosis? Personality Disorder? Maybe. But it’s hard for psychiatrists and psychologists to determine the amount of vengeful hatred that exists within such a person.

My opinion, don’t expect the mental health professionals to accurately weed such people out.

LOVE! :heart:

Thats OK the ones we can’t weed out we’ll sell them a $35 thousand stomach band on the way out.

You check this out yet? They all eat ice cream and throw up and call it a diet,. Its the Al Roker look, big head little body, you can’t miss them, there numbers are growing.

Good mental heath. Chocolate and vomiting. :thumbsup:

Actually good doctor can weed these kinds of people out and probably did, but there is nothing you can do for a psychopath, which is what this guys was. In the past we has mental institutions where he would be placed, but they are few and far between these day even though there is more need for them.

My brother-in-law works with the most mentally ill people in this country and he often say he just hopes this or that patient never gets hold of a gun. There is nothing you can do for this kind of person. He was a true psychopath in every sense of the word.

Really, and how long does it take a good Doctor to weed them out on a out-patient once a week conversation? As far as the OP, I have nothing but bad feelings about the entire situation.

I’ll give you this, if we can really observe you for 90 days and talk you as we choose, and see the group interaction dynamics observed. But on an out-patient level its a very different situation, the social interaction doesn’t lie. And we are talking private profit so we have to admit individual agenda’s. Had we been talking non profit, well perhaps a bit more concern for the patients, imho.

Robert is absolutely correct. And this depth of pain that puts one over the edge, if we can’t begin to have an individual begin to honesty get in touch with this and see it. Its very hard to know whats gonna happen. We know they are on their way to better mental heath.

The only thing that can prevent these ‘terrorists’ attacks from happening is LOVE! Mental health professionals are far, far behind the NT in advocating LOVE. LOVE is relatively rarely studied in psychology, never mind becoming a cure in and of itself. This was why I gave up my position as a research psychologist to become a more devout Catholic. It’s the emphasis on LOVE.

LOVE! :heart:

With some maybe, with this last shooter it was very likely he was born a psychopath. His manifesto was 137 pages long. He put a lot of time and thought into it. It was reported he had therapy the first time when he was 8 years old. Who said he wasn’t loved? Can you imagine what it is like as a parent to know your child is like this but their is nothing you can do for him?

If you watch the video a few times you might have noticed that he didn’t say everyone rejected him, he said the beautiful, blonds and popular people. He thought he should be loved by who he thought were “the best of the best”.

I grew up an extremely shy kid, never saying anything. If I ever spoke, people around were shocked, but instead of blaming others I blamed myself, I didn’t go out an hurt others. This person couldn’t even know what true love was, he was born thinking the world doesn’t understand how great I am and they are going to pay. He had no conscious, so he couldn’t know love.

You need to back your assertions up. Are Personality Disorders genetic? Maybe, but provide your source. And why label him a sociopath? Such a diagnosis requires much testing and observations. It’s nothing you can glean from a news story.

LOVE! :heart:

Here’s the state to state guidelines which in this case shows Calif. The solution is not a one or the other but both. And what really makes this complex is the VA and their issue with mental health related to gun possession.

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ncsl.org%2Fresearch%2Fcivil-and-criminal-justice%2Fpossession-of-a-firearm-by-the-mentally-ill.aspx&ei=BLCEU-LBAdS3sASBjoHQCA&usg=AFQjCNHB6_CoA6D0FIFXrhq3nJEjRh5pKQ&sig2=S8i2OHNLt1mwbARoeAJ0rQ&bvm=bv.67720277,d.cWc

Further imho private-profit hospitals are less likely than non-profit hospitals, which in turn are less likely than government hospitals, to offer psychiatric emergency help.

So you would imho again be in the out-patient situation, when in all truth that may not be the most beneficial situation.

This episode of hate being manifested by a young man who was angry for being lonely and a virgin really complicates these discussion further. His parents had seen the potential for violence at least a month earlier and even sought the police to help. The police followed their current protocol and did nothing further. The young man’s first actions were with a knife, followed by a gun and finishing up with ramming people with his car then shooting himself. Lots of “ifs” in this tragic killing spree. But, first and foremost we have to look at the young man. He was in counseling and his therapist sent the manifesto of hate to his parents, they ran trying to stop him but were to late. This is a serious question and not a sarcastic comment. Does anyone think that access to guns is really the main issue here? I personally believe he would have done just about anything your imagination could come up with to kill people with or without a gun. So, to me the priority here is to raise the level of attention to trying to identify, diagnose and properly treat our mentally ill. This does not mean that I think this will be easy but I think it is necessary. Should he have been able to purchase 3 semi-automatic guns, of course not. But, with or without the guns he would have killed and he did kill three with a knife.

The sad reality is that there is nothing about vengeful hatred (except when he actually threatens to harm someone) that would warrant psychiatric detention.

LOVE! :heart:

I didn’t say personality disorders were genetic? Some mental illness are, such as schizophrenia. I labeled him a psychopath, that is just my opinion from watching and reading the news. I do have a back ground in psychology, and mental health, which doesn’t mean much. More than that my husband has work in a crime lab and been an expert witness for the courts for over 20 years. He says there is a big difference between and “damage mind” due to pain, abuse, and anger throughout ones life and someone who simply has no conscious and probably never did.

The family is cooperating with police, so I will be interested to see if they have more to reveal in the months ahead about their son.

Right, but, they are obligated to follow the law. They could only observe and talk to the young man and for limited time, no warrant, no probable cause, no parental consent for the home. No in-patient documentation transmitted to the police. There’s a breakdown here.

I don’t know how the young man progressed, or spoke, or conducted himself in private. But I do know sending a counselor who then meets with the Dr say monthly to review caseloads. Well he could have been completely overlooked attempting to hide his behavior and in denial. Where the honest patient admitting and cooperative may get more productive help. They are playing an active role in their own recovery.

So whats the difference from a terrorist doing You Tube videos and then going out and killing 7-“Americans” or this young man going out targeting “American Women”

I don’t know. :shrug:

Most terrorist have been brought up and taught to hate from the time they were born. They usually have a strong religious reason to this hate also.

Learned-behavior/motive-conspiracy. Same situation, but the actual act of targeted hate toward a group by the individual is no different in this case women. Religion wouldn’t be an excuse either way.

The young man learned to hate women, and used a knife, vehicle and gun. Any one just as horrific.

I don’t want to suggest we have females being targeted by home grown terrorists. But the similarity is rather striking. Probably something else we ought to keep an eye on. :slight_smile: In our modern evolution of America that is.

Anyway just a thought.

Mentally ill or not, ANYONE can KILL. Guns were designed for one purppose: To kill…period!

To say otherwise is just plain absurd. I have heard the saying:

Not gun control,but crime control.

Hello! And guns are not associated with crime? Hello! It is the U.S. we are talking about.

I would like for someone to demonstrate where guns were not designed to kill,but for other purposes?

As they say though, hammers and fists kill more people than guns. Obviously, for these it is absurd to consider legal measures.

I’m all for much greater gun control, but the thing that stands out in this incident is the strong vengeful hatred that the shooter harbored within himself. Only LOVE can cure such a state-of-mind, and this type of LOVE is nowhere to be found except in religion.

LOVE! :heart:

I didn’t take from his speech that it was just women; in fact, it was “beautiful blonde women” and popular people. This didn’t sound like anyone taught him how to hate women. It seemed he wanted to be popular and took it out on popular people. Most people at some point in their life wants to be liked by the “popular” people but hey don’t go out and kill when they are not. They find other people to spend time with.

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.