Debate: Was Jesus actually resurrected and other arguments


#41

If you’re looking for extra-biblical references you’ve got Pliny the Younger, Josephus and Tacitus (none of whom are Christians) at minimum who corroborate claims of the New Testament as well as the existence of the Christians.

So again, we have to logically ask if the tomb is empty, what are the best explanations for it? Personally I think the most obvious claim would be the Apostles stole and hid the body. Next in line would probably be Jews either paid or coerced by the High Priest to steal the body. The Romans may have stolen it to quell any potential for more Messianic uprisings. Beyond that I’m not sure of any other reasonable conclusions for where the body of Jesus wound up. If you’ve got another to add I’d be happy to hear it.


#42

But i’m not arguing that there weren’t christians at the time nor would I assume that any of these extra-biblical sources purportedly were there at the resurrection or any of the other miracle in the bible. These confirm that the stories and many of their historically accurate accusations were there at the time but doesn’t in any way corroborate the claims substantiated.

How about, We Don’t Know. True, these are possibilities and guesses that I could throw your way but that would really be contrary to what I actually think whereupon very little information is given to substantiate any conclusion. Though, substantiating he rose from the dead would be a much heartier response to support and wouldn’t really be given much consideration as an actual explanation but more along the lines of a throw away response.

Ignore the lack of any support for the claim purposed, just think about how stuped all the other responses are (Though i would agree on a few of them that they are unconvincing) and thus that somehow counts as evidence for the previously supposed claims. How? How do you get from, there is no other explanation at all or they are not sufficient enough there for the claim that cannot be supported by historical consideration or investigated in anyway through scientific probing is king? I could still lack any consideration at all in my rational mind for the resurrection explanation or claim even if there wasn’t any other claim to replace it or all are unconvincing as well as unlikely. That is the position i’m taking. . . so is there anything else that supports the resurrection claims of the bible without appeals to the lack of explanations to the contrary, the unconvincing nature of them, or the personal beliefs that people founded on the claim itself.

Where do we go from here. . .


#43

Well, saying “we don’t know” isn’t exactly an option. You’re still left with the reality of a body that’s no longer where it ought to be (because we can conclude that, if the body WAS there than there wouldn’t be any Christians around.)

You logically have to ask where did it go? I’m not currently saying “it HAS to be the Resurrection”; I’m just trying to work it out from the well-known fact that people don’t come back from the dead and we have a group of people claiming someone came back from the dead.

So if you would just imagine you’re investigating this, as a 1st century Sherlock Holmes. We’ve got people who claim the tomb was empty. What’s next? Figure out where the body is so we can wrap the case up and smoke our pipes and play the violin.


#44

Jesus died. Hence the need for a Resurrection to vindicate his claim to be the Son of God. As well as the need to return to fulfill all the prophecy about the Messiah and the end times. Jesus’ death is prophesied in Isaiah 53 and Wisdom 2. That he would be a Sacrifice for our sins.

The Resurrection of Christ is immensely valuable because it points to our own resurrection from the dead and restoration from the effects of sin, namely death. This is all possible through faith in Christ and his death and Resurrection. The death and Resurrection also points to the fact that Jesus had a human body. Thus, he wasn’t spirit only. But he had a real body that died for our sins, and a real body that was raised from the dead. This means he was like us and became like us for us. He is the god man who is both God and man and therefore is the Mediator between God and man. He had a body that needed to be Ressurected. He did not merely discard his human body, but he raised it up giving it an eternal importance. And so to our bodies are to be given importance and will be raised up.

As far as evidence for the resurrection have you heard of the minimal facts argument? See here https://youtu.be/ay_Db4RwZ_M


#45

It’s still we do not know. . . we do not have a body (If I’am to accept your thought experiment) and have never found a body. But we do have very few people claiming he was resurrected, have themselves experienced him appearing to them, and saw him rise into the clouds all which can not be shown in any way as they had already apparently happened. This is the testimony of a few people with other evidence to support their claims, aside from a missing body, found missing as well.


#46

You’re right, we don’t have a body. So where is it? This isn’t a thought experiment, it’s asking basic questions that should follow from the claim that this Jesus of Nazareth was resurrected.

And for you to say “we have very few people claiming X to be true” is the same as you refuting my arguments about the vast number of Christian converts in the Roman Empire, so if my argument for big numbers doesn’t work than I’m not sure how the argument for little numbers would. And regardless of the number of claims, there’s still a missing body out there…


#47

First, prove that there is a need for or ever was original sin if that is pertinent to the discussion on whether a christian (not a historical) Jesus existed. How do you support the original sin doctrine without a literal view of genesis. . .remember. . .no ad hoc responses.


#48

I believe in a god and a god exists. . . are these the same.


#49

These converts were after the claims and they were convinced of them. . .that means that we shouldn’t investigate the claims and whether they are true? I know that you are not claiming this in this specific way but this is what i’m getting from you.


#50

What sources aside from the bible claim a resurrection event at around the time and in equal veracity.


#51

I’m trying to investigate the claim, with you. It’s obvious to me that we have to weigh out the possibilities for where Jesus body wound up in the event of an empty tomb. And simply stopping at “we don’t know” falls a little short.

If anyone had the body hidden it seems logical the corpse would have been produced once the Apostles began claiming they had seen a resurrected Jesus. And if the Apostles hid the body as a kind of self-confirming prophecy, I think it’s reasonable to ask why none of them relinquished that information or their position in the face of pretty gruesome deaths. Bartholomew is skinned alive for purporting to have seen Jesus- you’d think if he had even an inkling of doubt he’d have at least lied to save his skin.


#52

The body wasn’t there, claims of the resurrection circulated, and many multitudes of people assumed it was true. Should threats of death to people who continue to believe and continue to believe after the fact be taken as evidence of the claims purported? Why is it so hard for you to let these claims stand on there own?


#53

I’m not claiming the apostles hid the body nor is this pertinent to my position, please stop trying to shove responses i’m not making onto me.


#54

So you think it’s a reasonable assumption that the Apostles gave up their lives for something that may not have actually happened?


#55

I didn’t mean to seem as if I was, I’m just laying out my line of logic here. I don’t mean to put words in your mouth and I’m sorry if that’s the way it came across.


#56

I’m not claiming that either. . .but i’am waiting for you to support the resurrection claim of the bible.


#57

I think a group of people being hunted down, tortured and murdered and never recanting their testimony is supportive.


#58

I believe in a god and a god exists. . .ARE THESE THE SAME?


#59

Sorry but I haven’t even gotten to arguments from High Christology!


#60

Here, are talking about the people who believed or had faith in the claims or the apostles themselves whereupon they were hunted, tortured, and murdered for their beliefs. Beliefs in claims that i’m still waiting on for any rational basis to accept.


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