Debate: Was Jesus actually resurrected and other arguments


#143

True questions Victorious. Good battle.

Christian beliefs are the most unselfish beliefs that exist on this planet. Anything less is selfish.

The cross is not selfish.

As far as “cause” is concerned… There is no “cause” without effect.

The leader of the Davidians was selfish. He gave up and he brought down those, who he had deceived, with him. Did Branch Davidianism flourish after that? No!!!

Did Christianity flourish after the crucifixion of Peter? Yes!!!

Which group achieved the “true unselfish effect” as would be expected from a “true unselfish cause”?


#144

What evidence do you have that the Apostles were not “murdered” for their faith?

The evidence that does exist from closer to the time suggests they were. I’ll take that evidence as stronger than your mere skepticism.

Besides, it wouldn’t make sense that later Christians – who definitely were persecuted, tortured and killed through 250 years of sporadic and sometimes intense persecution under Roman emperors like Nero, Decius and Diocletian – would have died for their faith if the Apostles had not. I mean, why would later Christians who didn’t personally know Jesus be willing to die for him if those closest to him, who actually did know him, were unwilling?

That wouldn’t make sense.

And since you have no stake in the issue either way, you should at least be mildly receptive to that possibility. I mean being the reasonable person you claim to be.

No need to lose your mind over the issue. And there aren’t lions waiting in the wings to devour you if you don’t give the correct answer.


#145

What cause? Is pointing out non-tenable positions the cause you speak of? Then it is equivalent to pointing out that this is wrong or that this is just not the right kind of thinking or belief that should be held. Nothing to different from just pointing that out to somebody that they are wrong or misplaced.

Losing my mind in that I alone have to keep up this charade of a debate. I would of rather continued my research into the intricate philosophy and science that encapsulates space-time structures, but christianity is still a thing, sooo. . . I have to at least answer to it. But being frustrated with it is not what makes think it is untenable or why I come to reject belief in it.


#146

Is this saying you do not want to have any meaningful conversation hereafter?


#147

So humans are not the center of the universe in christianity? They are just set aside?


#148

What evidence do you have that they were murdered by their faith? Did you just dodge me, it shouldn’t be too hard to get reports down on this if it is so obvious.

Present it!

People die for a claim and that makes it true? This is very backwards, we need to assess the claim as first and secondary as what people viewed or believed about the claim. We don’t say that a UFO event is supported by the large number of people who believed the very very small number who supposedly say the UFO actually appeared somewhere.

Heck, what makes less sense is the lack of evidence you have posted to support the proposition that we knew exactly that these people had a chance to retract their claims OR were just killed off because of what they were said to believe in.

I’m waiting. . .


#149

I’m reasonable in the sense that I actually take a middle ground in this issue and you have to assert the positive because you have to believe it as it is a bias of your own.


#150

HarryStotle please answer this with actual references and support:

When did the apostles die, how did they die, and what were the circumstances of their death?

Then ascertain from these how you came to the conclusion that had a chance to recant and save their lives. <— support this especially


#153

From Jerome’s De Viris Illustribus:

Simon Peter the son of John, …held the sacerdotal chair there for twenty-five years until the last, that is the fourteenth, year of Nero. At his hands he received the crown of martyrdom being nailed to the cross with his head towards the ground and his feet raised on high, asserting that he was unworthy to be crucified in the same manner as his Lord.

James, who is called the brother of the Lord, surnamed the Just, …Ananias the high priest, …taking advantage of the state of anarchy, assembled a council and publicly tried to force James to deny that Christ is the son of God. When he refused Ananias ordered him to be stoned. Cast down from a pinnacle of the temple, his legs broken, but still half alive, raising his hands to heaven he said, “Lord forgive them for they know not what they do.” Then struck on the head by the club of a fuller such a club as fullers are accustomed to wring out garments with— he died. This same Josephus records the tradition that this James was of so great sanctity and reputation among the people that the downfall of Jerusalem was believed to be on account of his death.

Paul, formerly called Saul,…in the fourteenth year of Nero on the same day with Peter, was beheaded at Rome for Christ’s sake and was buried in the Ostian way, the twenty-seventh year after our Lord’s passion.

Continued…


#154

Lucius Annæus Seneca of Cordova,… was put to death by Nero two years before Peter and Paul were crowned with martyrdom.

Ignatius, third bishop of the church of Antioch after Peter the apostle, condemned to the wild beasts during the persecution of Trajan, was sent bound to Rome, …When he had been condemned to the wild beasts and with zeal for martyrdom heard the lions roaring, he said “I am the grain of Christ. I am ground by the teeth of the wild beasts that I may be found the bread of the world.” He was put to death the eleventh year of Trajan and the remains of his body lie in Antioch outside the Daphnitic gate in the cemetery.

Publius bishop of Athens had been crowned with martyrdom on account of his faith in Christ…

Justin, a philosopher, and wearing the garb of philosopher, a citizen of Neapolis, a city of Palestine, and the son of Priscus Bacchius, laboured strenuously in behalf of the religion of Christ, …accused of being a Christian, through the efforts and wiles of Crescens, he shed his blood for Christ.

Apollonius, a Roman senator under the emperor Commodus, having been denounced by a slave as a Christian,…by the will of the senate, he was beheaded for Christ by virtue of an ancient law among them…

Alexander, bishop of Cappadocia …In the seventh persecution under Decius, at the time when Babylas of Antioch was put to death, brought to Cæsarea and shut up in prison, he received the crown of martyrdom for confessing Christ.

Cornelius, bishop of Rome, to whom eight letters of Cyprian are extant, … received the crown of martyrdom for Christ, and was succeeded by Lucius.

Cyprian of Africa, … was put to death under the Emperors Valerian and Gallienus, in the eighth persecution, on the same day that Cornelius was put to death at Rome, but not in the same year.

Victorinus, bishop of Pettau, …wrote an Apology for Origen before Eusebius had written his and was put to death at Cæsarea in Palestine in the persecution of Maximinus.

Lucianus, a man of great talent, presbyter of the church at Antioch, … was put to death at Nicomedia for his confession of Christ in the persecution of Maximinus, and was buried at Helenopolis in Bithynia.

Phileas a resident of that Egyptian city which is called Thmuis, …was beheaded for Christ during the same persecution in which Lucianus was put to death at Nicomedia.

Methodius, bishop of Olympus in Lycia …in the reign of Decius and Valerianus, he was crowned with martyrdom at Chalcis in Greece.

Continued…



#155

Clement in the sixth book of his Hypotyposes writes “… there were two Jameses: one called the Just, who was thrown from the pinnacle of the temple and was beaten to death with a club by a fuller, and another who was beheaded.” (From Eusebius, Church History Book II.CH1.3-4)

  1. “ Acts 12:1-2 Now about that time” (it is clear that he means the time of Claudius) “Herod the King stretched forth his hands to vex certain of the Church. And he killed James the brother of John with the sword.”
  2. And concerning this James, Clement, in the seventh book of his Hypotyposes, relates a story which is worthy of mention; telling it as he received it from those who had lived before him. He says that the one who led James to the judgment-seat, when he saw him bearing his testimony, was moved, and confessed that he was himself also a Christian.
  3. They were both therefore, he says, led away together; and on the way he begged James to forgive him. And he, after considering a little, said, “Peace be with you,” and kissed him. And thus they were both beheaded at the same time. (From Eusebius, Church History Book II.CH9,1-3)

It is, therefore, recorded that Paul was beheaded in Rome itself, and that Peter likewise was crucified under Nero. This account of Peter and Paul is substantiated by the fact that their names are preserved in the cemeteries of that place even to the present day. (From Eusebius, Church History Book II.CH25,5)

…after the age of Nero and Domitian, under the emperor whose times we are now recording [Trajan], a persecution was stirred up against us in certain cities in consequence of a popular uprising. In this persecution we have understood that Symeon, the son of Clopas, who, as we have shown, was the second bishop of the church of Jerusalem, suffered martyrdom. (From Eusebius, Church History Book III.CH32,1)

After these words, before giving the account of Polycarp, they record the events which befell the rest of the martyrs, and describe the great firmness which they exhibited in the midst of their pains. For they say that the bystanders were struck with amazement when they saw them lacerated with scourges even to the innermost veins and arteries, so that the hidden inward parts of the body, both their bowels and their members, were exposed to view; and then laid upon sea-shells and certain pointed spits, and subjected to every species of punishment and of torture, and finally thrown as food to wild beasts. (From Eusebius, Church History Book IV.CH15,4)

About this time Justin [Martyr], who was mentioned by us just above, after he had addressed a second work in behalf of our doctrines to the rulers already named, was crowned with divine martyrdom, in consequence of a plot laid against him by Crescens, a philosopher who emulated the life and manners of the Cynics, whose name he bore. After Justin had frequently refuted him in public discussions he won by his martyrdom the prize of victory, dying in behalf of the truth which he preached. (From Eusebius, Church History Book IV.CH16,1)


#156

Josephus, Antiquities
Book 20: chapter 9

CONCERNING ALBINUS UNDER WHOSE PROCURATORSHIP JAMES WAS SLAIN; AS ALSO WHAT EDIFICES WERE BUILT BY AGRIPPA.

  1. AND now Caesar, upon hearing the death of Festus, sent Albinus into Judea, as procurator. But the king deprived Joseph of the high priesthood, and bestowed the succession to that dignity on the son of Ananus, who was also himself called Ananus. Now the report goes that this eldest Ananus proved a most fortunate man; for he had five sons who had all performed the office of a high priest to God, and who had himself enjoyed that dignity a long time formerly, which had never happened to any other of our high priests. But this younger Ananus, who, as we have told you already, took the high priesthood, was a bold man in his temper, and very insolent; he was also of the sect of the Sadducees, who are very rigid in judging offenders, above all the rest of the Jews, as we have already observed; when, therefore, Ananus was of this disposition, he thought he had now a proper opportunity [to exercise his authority]. Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done; they also sent to the king [Agrippa], desiring him to send to Ananus that he should act so no more, for that what he had already done was not to be justified; nay, some of them went also to meet Albinus, as he was upon his journey from Alexandria, and informed him that it was not lawful for Ananus to assemble a sanhedrin without his consent. (24) Whereupon Albinus complied with what they said, and wrote in anger to Ananus, and threatened that he would bring him to punishment for what he had done; on which king Agrippa took the high priesthood from him, when he had ruled but three months, and made Jesus, the son of Damneus, high priest.

#157

They came, therefore, in a body to James, and said: “We entreat thee, restrain the people: for they are gone astray in their opinions about Jesus, as if he were the Christ. We entreat thee to persuade all who have come hither for the day of the passover, concerning Jesus. For we all listen to thy persuasion; since we, as well as all the people, bear thee testimony that thou art just, and showest partiality to none. Do thou, therefore, persuade the people not to entertain erroneous opinions concerning Jesus: for all the people, and we also, listen to thy persuasion. Take thy stand, then, upon the summit of the temple, that from that elevated spot thou mayest be clearly seen, and thy words may be plainly audible to all the people. For, in order to attend the passover, all the tribes have congregated hither, and some of the Gentiles also.”

The aforesaid scribes and Pharisees accordingly set James on the summit of the temple, and cried aloud to him, and said: “O just one, whom we are all bound to obey, forasmuch as the people is in error, and follows Jesus the crucified, do thou tell us what is the door of Jesus, the crucified.” And he answered with a loud voice: “Why ask ye me concerning Jesus the Son of man? He Himself sitteth in heaven, at the right hand of the Great Power, and shall come on the clouds of heaven.”

And, when many were fully convinced by these words, and offered praise for the testimony of James, and said, “Hosanna to the son of David,” then again the said Pharisees and scribes said to one another, “We have not done well in procuring this testimony to Jesus. But let us go up and throw him down, that they may be afraid, and not believe him.” And they cried aloud, and said: “Oh! oh! the just man himself is in error.” Thus they fulfilled the Scripture written in Isaiah: “Let us away with the just man, because he is troublesome to us: therefore shall they eat the fruit of their doings.” So they went up and threw down the just man, and said to one another: “Let us stone James the Just.” And they began to stone him: for he was not killed by the fall; but he turned, and kneeled down, and said: “I beseech Thee, Lord God our Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.”

And, while they were thus stoning him to death, one of the priests, the sons of Rechab, the son of Rechabim, to whom testimony is borne by Jeremiah the prophet, began to cry aloud, saying: “Cease, what do ye? The just man is praying for us.” But one among them, one of the fullers, took the staff with which he was accustomed to wring out the garments he dyed, and hurled it at the head of the just man.

And so he suffered martyrdom; and they buried him on the spot, and the pillar erected to his memory still remains, close by the temple. This man was a true witness to both Jews and Greeks that Jesus is the Christ.

Hegesippus;
Fragments from His Five Books of Commentaries on the Acts of the Church.


#158

Ignatius: THE MARTYRDOM OF POLYCARP

So after this all the multitude, marveling at the bravery of the God-beloved and God-fearing people of the Christians, raised a cry, “Away with the atheists; let search be made for Polycarp.”

4:1
But one man, Quintus by name, a Phrygian newly arrived from Phrygia, when he saw the wild beasts, turned coward. He it was who had forced himself and some others to come forward of their own free will (and recant their faith). The proconsul by much entreaty persuaded this man to swear the oath and to offer incense. For this cause therefore, brethren, we praise not those who volunteer to recant, since the Gospel does not so teach us.

5:1
Now the glorious Polycarp at the first, when he heard it, so far from being dismayed, wanted to remain in town; but the greater part persuaded him to withdraw. So he withdrew to a farm not far distant from the city, and there he stayed with a few companions, doing nothing else night and day but praying for all men and for the churches throughout the world, for this was his constant habit.

5:2
And while praying he fell into a trance three days before his arrest, and he saw his pillow burning with fire. He turned and said to those that were with him: “It must needs be that I shall be burned alive.”

6:1
Since those that were in search of him persisted, he departed to another farm. Immediately they who were in search of him came up, and not finding him, they seized two slave lads, one of whom confessed under torture;

6:2
for it was impossible for him to lie concealed, seeing that the very persons who betrayed him were people of his own household. And the captain of the police, who chanced to have the very name, being called Herod, was eager to bring him into the stadium, that he might fulfill his appointed lot, being made a partaker with Christ, while they – his betrayers – underwent the punishment of Judas himself.

7:1
So taking the lad with them, on the Friday about the supper hour, the police and horsemen went forth with their accustomed weapons, hurrying as against a robber. And coming up in a troop late in the evening, they found the man himself (Polycarp) in bed in an upper chamber in a certain cottage; and though he might have departed from there to another place, he would not, saying, “The will of God be done.”


#159

7:2
So when he heard that they were come, he went down and conversed with them, the bystanders marveling at his age and his constancy, and wondering why there should be so much eagerness for the apprehension of an old man like him. At that, he immediately gave orders that a table should be spread for them to eat and drink at that hour, as much as they desired. And he persuaded them to grant him an hour so he might pray unmolested;

7:3
and on their consenting, he stood up and prayed, being so full of the grace of God, that for two hours he could not hold his peace, and those that heard were amazed, and many repented that they had come against such a venerable old man.

8:1
But when at length he brought his prayer to an end, after remembering all who at any time had come in his way, small and great, high and low, and all the universal Church throughout the world, the hour of departure being come, they seated him on a donkey and brought him into the city, it being a high Sabbath.

8:2
And he was met by Herod the captain of police and his father Nicetes, who also removed him to their carriage and tried to prevail upon him, seating themselves by his side and saying, "Why, what harm is there in saying, Caesar is Lord, and offering incense," with more to this effect, “and saving yourself?” But he at first gave them no answer. When however they persisted, he said, “I am not going to do what you counsel me.”

8:3
Then they, failing to persuade him, uttered threatening words and made him dismount with speed, so that he bruised his shin, as he got down from the carriage. And without even turning round, he went on his way promptly and with speed, as if nothing had happened to him, being taken to the stadium; there being such a tumult in the stadium that no man’s voice could be so much as heard.

9:1
But as Polycarp entered into the stadium, a voice came to him from heaven; “Be strong, Polycarp, and play the man.” And no one saw the speaker, but those of our people who were present heard the voice. And at length, when he was brought up, there was a great tumult, for they heard that Polycarp had been apprehended.

9:2
When then he was brought before him, the proconsul asked whether he were the man. And on his confessing that he was, he tried to persuade him to a denial saying, “Have respect to your age,” and other things in accordance therewith, as it is their habit to say, “Swear by the genius of Caesar; repent and say, ‘Away with the atheists.’” Then Polycarp with solemn countenance looked upon the whole multitude of lawless heathen that were in the stadium, and waved his hand to them; and groaning and looking up to heaven he said, “Away with the atheists.”


#160

9:3
But when the magistrate pressed him hard and said, "Swear the oath, and I will release you; revile the Christ," Polycarp said, “Eighty-six years have I been His servant, and He has done me no wrong. How then can I blaspheme my King who saved me?”

10:1
But on his persisting again and saying, “Swear by the genius of Caesar,” he answered, “If you suppose vainly that I will swear by the genius of Caesar, as you say, and feign that you are ignorant who I am, hear you plainly: I am a Christian. But if you would learn the doctrine of Christianity, assign a day and give me a hearing.”

10:2
The proconsul said, “Prevail upon the people.” But Polycarp said, “As for yourself, I should have held you worthy of discourse; for we have been taught to render, as is proper, to princes and authorities appointed by God such honor as does us no harm; but as for these, I do not hold them worthy, that I should defend myself before them.”

11:1
Whereupon the proconsul said: “I have wild beasts here and I will throw you to them, except you repent.” But he said, “Call for them, for the repentance from better to worse is a change not permitted to us; but it is a noble thing to change from that which is improper to righteousness.”

11:2
Then he said to him again, "If you despise the wild beasts, I will cause you to be consumed by fire, unless you repent." But Polycarp said: "You threaten that fire which burns for a season and after a little while is quenched: for you are ignorant of the fire of the future judgment and eternal punishment, which is reserved for the ungodly. But why do you delay? Come, do what you will."

12:1
Saying these things and more besides, he was inspired with courage and joy, and his countenance was filled with grace, so that not only did it not drop in dismay at the things which were said to him, but on the contrary the proconsul was astounded and sent his own herald to proclaim three times in the midst of the stadium, “Polycarp has confessed himself to be a Christian.”

12:2
When this was proclaimed by the herald, the whole multitude both of Gentiles and of Jews who dwelt in Smyrna cried out with ungovernable wrath and with a loud shout, “This is the teacher of Asia, the father of the Christians, the puller down of our gods, who teaches multitudes not to sacrifice nor worship.” Saying these things, they shouted aloud and asked the Asiarch Philip to let a lion loose upon Polycarp. But he said that it was not lawful for him, since he had brought the sports to a close.


#161

12:3
Then they thought fit to shout out with one accord that Polycarp should be burned alive. For it must needs be that the matter of the vision should be fulfilled, which was shown him concerning his pillow, when he saw it on fire while praying, and turning round he said prophetically to the faithful who were with him, “I must needs be burned alive.”

13:1
These things then happened with so great speed, quicker than words could tell, the crowds immediately collected timber and sticks from the workshops and baths, and the Jews more especially assisted in this with zeal, as is their custom.

13:2
But when the pile was made ready, divesting himself of all his upper garments and loosing his belt, he endeavored also to take off his shoes, though not in the habit of doing this before, because all the faithful at all times vied eagerly who should soonest touch his flesh. For he had been treated with all honor for his holy life even before his gray hairs came.

13:3
Immediately then the instruments that were prepared for the pile were placed about him. As they were going likewise to nail him to the stake, he said: “Leave me as I am; for He that has granted me to endure the fire will grant me also to remain at the pyre unmoved, even without the security which you seek from the nails.”

14:1
So they did not nail him, but tied him. Then he, placing his hands behind him and being bound to the stake, like a noble ram out of a great flock for an offering, a burnt sacrifice made ready and acceptable to God, looking up to heaven said: "O Lord God Almighty, the Father of Your beloved and blessed Son Jesus Christ, through whom we have received the knowledge of You, the God of angels and powers and of all creation and of the whole race of the righteous, who live in Your presence;

14:2
I bless You because You have granted me this day and hour, that I might receive a portion amongst the number of martyrs in the cup of Your Christ unto resurrection of eternal life, both of soul and of body, in the incorruptibility of the Holy Spirit. May I be received among these in Your presence this day, as a rich and acceptable sacrifice, as You did prepare and reveal it beforehand, and have accomplished it, You that art the faithful and true God.

14:3
For this cause, yea and for all things, I praise You, I bless You, I glorify You, through the eternal and heavenly High-priest, Jesus Christ, Your beloved Son, through Whom, with Him and the Holy Spirit, be glory both now and ever and for the ages to come. Amen."

15:1
When he had offered up the Amen and finished his prayer, the firemen lighted the fire. And, a mighty flame flashing forth, we to whom it was given to see, saw a marvel, yea and we were preserved that we might relate to the rest what happened.


#162

"Now the blessed Pothinus, who had been entrusted with the service of the bishopric in Lugdunum, was also dragged before the judgment-seat. He was now upwards of ninety years of age, and exceedingly weak in body. Though he breathed with difficulty on account of the feebleness of the body, yet he was strengthened by the eagerness of his spirit, on account of his earnest desire to bear his testimony. His body, indeed, was already dissolved through old age and disease, yet the life was preserved in him, that Christ might triumph through him. When he was brought by the soldiers to the judgment-seat, under a convoy of the magistrates of the city, and amid exclamations of every kind from the whole population, as if he himself were the Christ, he gave the good testimony. Being asked by the governor who was the God of the Christians, he said, `If thou art worthy, thou shalt know.’ Thereupon he was unmercifully dragged about, and endured many blows; for those who were near maltreated him in every way with their hands and feet, showing no respect for his age, while those at a distance hurled against him each one whatever came to hand, all of them believing that they would sin greatly and act impiously if they in any respect fell short in their insulting treatment of him. For they thought that in this way they would avenge their gods. And Pothinus, breathing with difficulty, was cast into prison, and two days after he expired.

"After all these, on the last day of the gladiatorial shows, Blandina was again brought in along with Ponticus, a boy of about fifteen years of age. These two had been taken daily to the amphitheatre to see the tortures which the rest endured, and force was used to compel them to swear by the idols of the heathen; but on account of their remaining stedfast, … the multitude were furious against them, so as neither to pity the tender years of the boy nor to respect the sex of the woman. Accordingly they exposed them to every terror, and inflicted on them every torture, repeatedly trying to compel them to swear. But they failed in effecting this; for Ponticus, encouraged by his sister, so plainly indeed that even the heathens saw that it was she that encouraged and confirmed him, after enduring nobly every kind of torture, gave up the ghost; while the blessed Blandina, last of all, after having like a noble mother encouraged her children, and sent them on before her victorious to the King, trod the same path of conflict which her children had trod, hastening on to them with joy and exultation at her departure, not as one thrown to the wild beasts, but as one invited to a marriage supper. And after she had been scourged and exposed to the wild beasts, and roasted in the iron chair, she was at last enclosed in a net and cast before a bull. And after having been well tossed by the bull, though without having any feeling of what was happening to her, through her hope and firm hold of what had been entrusted to her and her converse with Christ, she also was sacrificed…

From: The Letter of the Churches of Vienna and Lugdunum to the Churches of Asia and Phrygia


#163

Ok well I consider an intelligent mind behind the universe a better explanation for the existence of intelligence than blind forces of nature. Believing blind forces of nature caused everything is like believing a tornado going through a junkyard can produce a perfectly functioning 747. Would you trust flying in such a machine? If not then how could you trust your own mind to know anything if it was produced by random chance and blind forces of nature.

The existence of a multiverse theory is really an admission that our universe appears to be designed. But, it is a bit like proposing that the reason the tornado formed a fully functional airplane was because there is an infinite number of tornadoes going through infinite junkyards and that eventually one of them was bound to form a fully functioning 747. It seems to me the more plausible view is that the airplane was designed.


#164

I think the Jewish people were a nation of believers during Jesus’s life. The conversations in the bible between Jesus and others were between believers. Even his opponents were believers, just wrong about their beliefs.

I was just skimming the thread and was thinking that the bible doesn’t go out of its was to provide those that don’t believe many direct arguments for believing, does it? It is for believers, which makes sense being that is a religious text. So how does one go about finding belief in the first place, even if they really want to?

Is the bible of any use to a non-believer? I would have to ask @VictoriousTruth in this thread. Let’s assume you already have a good foundation for moral law. Miracles and resurrection story aside, what do you think of Jesus’s conversations with his detractors? They were believers but they didn’t believe in him. Do you think Jesus spoke wisely?


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