Debating a Protestant


#1

I’m debating a Protestant who claims that Catholics “worship” the Virgin Mary and this so-called “worship” is “actually the worship of the goddess Tammuz”. :rolleyes: He provided this link: barr-family.com/godsword/queen.htm

I’ve seen this claim before and have seen it refuted but, I can’t seem to find any links that refute it, at this moment. Could someone provide some helpful links?


#2

Concerning this quote:

During A.D. 306, A Roman Emperor named Constantine, was threatened by a very powerful enemy army. Realizing that his uneasy troops needed confidence, Constantine claimed to have seen a vision on the eve of battle. He saw a large blue flag with a red cross on it and heard a mighty voice which said, In hoc signo vinces — ‘‘In this sign conquer.’’ He thereupon marched his troops into a shallow river, claimed them to be officially baptized, and ordered the sign of the cross painted on all his weapons. Thus inspired, he led his troops to victory and subsequently made Christianity the state religion of Rome.

The Roman priests of Tammuz soon discovered that they could easily make the transition into Christianity (with certain changes) and thereupon carried their traditions forward without interruption by promoting the Madonna-Child worship concept, the holy water sacrament, etc.

All of the ‘contending’ doctrine about Mary that people have trouble with have been duly noted and articles have been written by our friends at Catholic Answers. The Early Church Fathers in these 3 following links all address the Catholic Church’s view on Mary with quotes well before Constantine.

catholic.com/library/Mary_Mother_of_God.asp
catholic.com/library/Mary_Full_of_Grace.asp
catholic.com/library/Mary_Ever_Virgin.asp

But, I was reading on the site and was wondering what anyone says about this quote

To the Virgin Mary they pray in these words: “O Mother of God, Queen of heaven, command thy Son to have mercy upon us!” and, “The right use of images,” says the Council of Trent, “is to honor them, by bowing down before them.” (Sess. 25, pars 2.)

This doctrine strikes at the root of that great commandment, (which the Papists call part of the first,) “Thou shalt not bow down to them, nor worship them.” That is, not any image whatsoever. It is gross, open, palpable idolatry, such as can neither be denied nor excused; and tends directly to destroy the love of God, which is indeed the first and greatest commandment.

(From the Works of John Wesley, vol. 11, page 215)

emphasis added.


#3

With a name like mine, I’ve got a vested interest in THIS thread.:smiley:

Many Fathers in the early Church taught that similarities between the true religion and the religion of the pagans were caused by Satan to confuse humanity, so that when the true fulfillment of those primordial beliefs came in the Person of Jesus Christ, Satan would be able to lead others from Christ.

Two classic examples are St. Justin Martyr’s “Dialogue with Trypho the Jew” and St. Irenaeus’ “Against Heresies.”

Blessings,
Marduk


#4

Peace and all-good!

There is no comparison between the pagan worship and the Catholic teachings on the Blessed Virgin Mary.

The Blessed Virgin Mary was the woman in Gen. 3: 15 who will crushed the head of the serpent and the serpent’s offsprings (the sects who attacked the BVM).

The Blessed Virgin Mary was the woman at the foot of the cross whom Jesus Christ gave to us as our spiritual mother (John 19: 25-27).

All generations to come shall call the Blessed Virgin Mary blessed. (Luke 1: 48).

jpaul


#5

That argument only works if the Protestant in question believes sincerely that Jesus Christ was the son of the goddess Tammuz. :eek:


#6

Ask him what would happen to him if he denied that he worshipped Christ. If we worshipped Mary, then the same thing would happen to us, since we always and everywhere deny that we worship her.

Is there anything more stupid than truly worshipping some deity and at the same time denying that one worships that deity? Talk about a lose-lose situation!


#7

Why not do as Christ did and refute it with an analogy they should understand.

I like to use “Protestants worship wood.”

  1. The Catholic crucifix features Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior.

  2. Catholics often look at a crucifix in prayer.

  3. Prayer is a worshipful act.

  4. Therefore, Catholics worship Christ.

  5. Protestant crosses do not feature Christ.

  6. Protestants often look at a cross while in prayer.

  7. Prayer is a worshipful act.

  8. Therefore, Protestants worship wood.

It is directly analogous to their various slanders against Catholics, whether calling us Mary-worshipers, statue-worshipers, or saint-worshipers.

And it is just as ridiculous, unfair, and unChristian to claim that Protestants worship wood as that Catholics worship anyone or anything but God.

If they persist in the analogy by referring to prayers such as the Hail Mary, point them to their hymnal and all the songs about the Cross.

And be sure to smile condescendingly and shake your head when you do, which is often the response Catholics get when rebuking the claim that we do not worship God.


#8

Thank you all for your responses. :slight_smile:

Another thing this Protestant said is that Simon Magus (aka Simon the Sorcerer), not Simon Peter, founded the Catholic Church. :rolleyes: He provided this link as well: reformation.org/simon_peter_versus_simon_magus.html

Any good links refuting this ridiculous Protestant claim?


#9

:rotfl:

I am sorry, but if you click the main menu on that link you get a shock:

THE EARTH DOES NOT MOVE:eek:

Um, this is one wacky site, I would not waste a moment of my time with someone who is reading this kind of stuff.


#10

I once posted a comment a year ago. If Catholic worship statues, then Protestant worship the ceiling since their raise they hands towards the ceiling.


#11

And their food, since they bow their head in front of their steak and potatoes.

And their beds, if they kneel before them while saying bedtime prayers.

And their ‘worship band’, as I’ve seen them prostating themselves in front of their stages.


#12

And to think that when I was a Protestant, I did ALL of these things while praying!

Thank God the scales have fallen from my eyes. :wink:


#13

Get thee behind me, you food, bed and band worshiper! :rotfl:


#14

Your Protestant friend probably respects Martin Luther. Tell him to read Luther’s commentary on the Magnificat in volume 21 of Luther’s “Works.” Luther wrote that commentary for some such-or-other German lord who helped him during the turmoil of the Reformation, so we’re talking totally post-Catholic stuff here. In the commentary Luther endorses prayer to the saints generally, and explicitly endorses prayers to Mary.

I know because I read it earlier this month. :slight_smile:

Then tell your Protestant friend to go to a large public library and browse the 220+ section for book about the history of adoration of Mary. I’ve read two myself. Eye-opening. :slight_smile:


#15

Has he even read Acts of the Apostles in his own Bible?


#16

hmm… I’m pretty sure Tammuz is a MALE god… I mean, if you’re going to make an attempt to call Catholics pagan idolaters, at least get your pagan idols straight first :rolleyes:


#17

I don’t have any links for you, unfortunately. This is my take on it though: If I were “worshiping” the goddess Tammuz, I would KNOW that’s who I was worshiping. When i ask Mother Mary to pray for me my heart and mind know that it is Mary that I am speaking to, not the Pope, not St. Peter etc etc etc. This claim is ridiculous. That would be like saying that when I am talking to my mother I am really talking to my uncle. I KNOW that it is my mother that I am talking to, I can see her, I can touch her if I like, it’s her. Likewise for Mother Mary, I may not be able to see her and touch her but in my heart and mind, I am talking to her. Therefore, how could I be talking to some “goddess” that didn’t even know existed?


#18

Does anyone know of any good information/articles refuting this Protestant claim? I entered another debate with this Protestant (and a few others) and I can’t seem to find anything online from Catholic apologetics websites. I would really appreciate some info, thanks. :slight_smile:


#19

Is Catholicism Pagan?
Pagan Influence Fallacy


#20

Thank you very, very much. :slight_smile: :thumbsup:


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