Debating Jews...

I’m about to begin a debate with a real sharp Jewish guy, and I know almost nothing about things Jewish. This debate will be over papal infallibility and how it relates to how the Church treated Jews in the past.

I understand papal infallibility, but I’m unclear as to where the line falls. Faith and morals, right. Got it. But when a pope makes a pronouncement that all Jews must be killed…? I don’t know if that’s ever happened, but I suspect there will be some pope somewhere in history who called a crusade against the Jews.

So, thoughts?

Rosalind Moss is who you need, or at least some of her writings…
a converted jew… writes for this rock… look in Catholic Answers Home… :thumbsup:

[quote=montanaman]I’m about to begin a debate with a real sharp Jewish guy, and I know almost nothing about things Jewish. This debate will be over papal infallibility and how it relates to how the Church treated Jews in the past.

I understand papal infallibility, but I’m unclear as to where the line falls. Faith and morals, right. Got it. But when a pope makes a pronouncement that all Jews must be killed…? I don’t know if that’s ever happened, but I suspect there will be some pope somewhere in history who called a crusade against the Jews.

So, thoughts?
[/quote]

  1. No pope would ever declare a “war” against Jews. The Catholic Church is very aware of its Jewish heritage.

  2. If a pope DID pronouce an ethnic cleansing, it would not be infallible, as the charim of infallibility only resides in matters of faith and morals.

Read more about some controversies involving popes who might have some “prejudices” against the Jews. Remember, “revisionist” historians are making things up just to attack the Catholic Church. BTW, read more info about Pope Pius XII. He might bring this issue up in your dialogue.

Another thing, if you have time, read the writings of St. Justin Martyr in his “Dialogue with Trypo, a Jew.” This is an excellent source for Biblical defense of Catholic theology against Jewish theology.

May that dialogue be fruitful and bring about his conversion. Pray to the Holy Spirit.

Pio

some more good stuff… :thumbsup:

Now That We’re Catholic! Video Series With Rosalind Moss and Kristine Franklin
02: From Judaism to the Fullness of Christ
03: Home At Last: 11 Who Found Their Way To The Catholic Church
04: Home At Last: 11 Who Found Their Way To The Catholic Church: Audiobook
05: Household Of Faith Video Series
06: The Passover Fulfilled
07: Mary, Our Jewish Mother
08: A Day of Grace - Audiotapes
09: The Father’s Gifts
10: Day of Grace - Compact Discs
11: Journeys Home
12: The Jewish Roots of Our Catholic Faith - Compact Disc
13: The Jewish Roots of Our Catholic Faith - Tapes
14: St. John’s Gospel: A Bible Study Guide And Commentary

shop.catholic.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/cgi-local/wwwwais.exe?U+scstore+rrzq5207ff360736+configure=/u/web/shop96/merchant/swish/scstore.wcf

click the link above and then enter Rosalind Moss in the search box… good luck my friend… :thumbsup:

Make sure you keep to the subject of what is said ex-cathedra.

When people make charges like this the onus is on them to provide documention. Don’t be bullied by the “everyone knows this” or “it’s well documented” or “I don’t need to show you–I know what I know” brush off. They need to show you the specific comments in context before you can make reply to a charge of this sort. If they are able to present it to you from a reasonably unbiased source, don’t feel pressed to make a reply on the spot; do some research if necessary to verify the claims or to put it in historical context.

This might seem like a lot of trouble, but people are just to ready to throw around unsubstantiated charges. It’s the easiest thing in the world to assert someone said or did so and so, but harder to back it up. As a corrollary, don’t claim anything you can’t back up and be willing to do so if necessary.

It doesn’t make any sense to debate the infallibility of the Pope with a non-Christian. The issue is only relevant if one accepts Christian presuppositions in the first place.

Edwin

You might also want to check out the ecumenical councils, which are also infallible. For example, constitutions 67 through 70 of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215) dealt with Jews, in particular:

69. Jews not to hold public offices

It would be too absurd for a blasphemer of Christ to exercise power over Christians. We therefore renew in this canon, on account of the boldness of the offenders, what the council of Toledo providently decreed in this matter : we forbid Jews to be appointed to public offices, since under cover of them they are very hostile to Christians. If, however, anyone does commit such an office to them let him, after an admonition, be curbed by the provincial council, which we order to be held annually, by means of an appropriate sanction. Any official so appointed shall be denied commerce with Christians in business and in other matters until he has converted to the use of poor Christians, in accordance with the directions of the diocesan bishop, whatever he has obtained from Christians by reason of his office so acquired, and he shall surrender with shame the office which he irreverently assumed. We extend the same thing to pagans.

[size=3]Official Church teaching[/size]: NOSTRA AETATE


  1. As the sacred synod searches into the mystery of the Church, it remembers the bond that spiritually ties the people of the New Covenant to Abraham’s stock.

Thus the Church of Christ acknowledges that, according to God’s saving design, the beginnings of her faith and her election are found already among the Patriarchs, Moses and the prophets. She professes that all who believe in Christ-Abraham’s sons according to faith (6)-are included in the same Patriarch’s call, and likewise that the salvation of the Church is mysteriously foreshadowed by the chosen people’s exodus from the land of bondage. The Church, therefore, cannot forget that she received the revelation of the Old Testament through the people with whom God in His inexpressible mercy concluded the Ancient Covenant. Nor can she forget that she draws sustenance from the root of that well-cultivated olive tree onto which have been grafted the wild shoots, the Gentiles.(7) Indeed, the Church believes that by His cross Christ, Our Peace, reconciled Jews and Gentiles. making both one in Himself.(8)

The Church keeps ever in mind the words of the Apostle about his kinsmen: “theirs is the sonship and the glory and the covenants and the law and the worship and the promises; theirs are the fathers and from them is the Christ according to the flesh” (Rom. 9:4-5), the Son of the Virgin Mary. She also recalls that the Apostles, the Church’s main-stay and pillars, as well as most of the early disciples who proclaimed Christ’s Gospel to the world, sprang from the Jewish people.

As Holy Scripture testifies, Jerusalem did not recognize the time of her visitation,(9) nor did the Jews in large number, accept the Gospel; indeed not a few opposed its spreading.(10) Nevertheless, God holds the Jews most dear for the sake of their Fathers; He does not repent of the gifts He makes or of the calls He issues-such is the witness of the Apostle.(11) In company with the Prophets and the same Apostle, the Church awaits that day, known to God alone, on which all peoples will address the Lord in a single voice and “serve him shoulder to shoulder” (Soph. 3:9).(12)

Since the spiritual patrimony common to Christians and Jews is thus so great, this sacred synod wants to foster and recommend that mutual understanding and respect which is the fruit, above all, of biblical and theological studies as well as of fraternal dialogues.

True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ;(13) still, what happened in His passion cannot be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today. Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures. All should see to it, then, that in catechetical work or in the preaching of the word of God they do not teach anything that does not conform to the truth of the Gospel and the spirit of Christ.

Furthermore, in her rejection of every persecution against any man, the Church, mindful of the patrimony she shares with the Jews and moved not by political reasons but by the Gospel’s spiritual love, decries hatred, persecutions, displays of anti-Semitism, directed against Jews at any time and by anyone.

Besides, as the Church has always held and holds now, Christ underwent His passion and death freely, because of the sins of men and out of infinite love, in order that all may reach salvation. It is, therefore, the burden of the Church’s preaching to proclaim the cross of Christ as the sign of God’s all-embracing love and as the fountain from which every grace flows.
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

Catholic2003, it is most often counter-productive to quote a council outside of its historical and social context. Catholics should avoid quoting councils unless they are prepared to support the quote with such context.

For example, “No salvation outside the Church” is a correct quote, and no error in its theology, but often erroneous in its current application, as there was only one Church at the time this statement was made at the Council of Florence. Taking a council out of context is a trap to guard against.

Without getting offtrack, montanaman’s Jewish friend could easily use your quote against him, and he needs to be prepared to provide a vast amount of historical, political, and social context to make an 800 year old council meaningful and in his favor.

[quote=montanaman]I’m about to begin a debate with a real sharp Jewish guy, and I know almost nothing about things Jewish. This debate will be over papal infallibility and how it relates to how the Church treated Jews in the past.

I understand papal infallibility, but I’m unclear as to where the line falls. Faith and morals, right. Got it. But when a pope makes a pronouncement that all Jews must be killed…? I don’t know if that’s ever happened, but I suspect there will be some pope somewhere in history who called a crusade against the Jews.

So, thoughts?
[/quote]

As I am considering your debate and the responses people are giving, I am thinking I would be putting my money on the sharp Jewish guy. (Only in terms of the debate)

I am a Catholic Christian and am quite certain I couldn’t be convinced to give up my faith. But the “debate” you are entering doesn’t seem likely to be profitable.

The truth and legitimacy of the Catholic Church does not depend on the actions/proclamations of its leaders. Not even the pope and not even “ex-cathedra”

The fact is there have been popes (and a great many Catholics) who have practiced outrageous bigotry against Jews just as there has been popes and other Catholics who have risked and given their lives to defend Jews from such bigotry.

Jesus was Jewish. (And nothing in the Bible tells me that he renounced that faith) So was his Mother. All the disciples were also.

Have you read “The Chosen” and “The Promise” by Chiam Potok. They give a very interesting (and I think truthful) insights into what it means to be Jewish, at least in some circles.

I hope your “debate” leads you to find the common ground of all descendants of Abraham.

Peace

-Jim

This guy is pretty vicious and not terribly interested in persuading anyone to anything but his own brilliance. I’m debating him because he is virulently anti-Christian and has been taking shots at the Church. Call it a PR battle. :wink:

[quote=kepha1]as there was only one Church at the time this statement was made at the Council of Florence.
[/quote]

No, there was the Orthodox Church as well.

[quote=kepha1]Without getting offtrack, montanaman’s Jewish friend could easily use your quote against him, and he needs to be prepared to provide a vast amount of historical, political, and social context to make an 800 year old council meaningful and in his favor.
[/quote]

The ecumenical councils are a matter of public record; I’m sure montanaman’s opponent is already aware of this. My point is that montanaman needs to be aware of these statements as well, and be prepared to defend against them.

[quote=Catholic2003]You might also want to check out the ecumenical councils, which are also infallible. For example, constitutions 67 through 70 of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215) dealt with Jews, in particular:
[/quote]

Not everything coming out of every Ecumenical Council is infallible. Only defined dogma.

James

Quote:
69. Jews not to hold public offices

It would be too absurd for a blasphemer of Christ to exercise power over Christians. We therefore renew in this canon, on account of the boldness of the offenders, what the council of Toledo providently decreed in this matter : we forbid Jews to be appointed to public offices, since under cover of them they are very hostile to Christians. If, however, anyone does commit such an office to them let him, after an admonition, be curbed by the provincial council, which we order to be held annually, by means of an appropriate sanction. Any official so appointed shall be denied commerce with Christians in business and in other matters until he has converted to the use of poor Christians, in accordance with the directions of the diocesan bishop, whatever he has obtained from Christians by reason of his office so acquired, and he shall surrender with shame the office which he irreverently assumed. We extend the same thing to pagans.

That’s EXACTLY what I mean by unhelpful. Is this infallible? I sincerely hope not. How are we to know?

The following is page 1 of 2 of a Google search on “marty barrack” infallibility

The Catholic Truth Newspaper
… (Marty Barrack is a Catholic writer-evangelist … Infallibility is the protection given
by the Holy Spirit to the pope so that he will never teach error in matters …
transporter.com/Apologia/c_truth.htm - 46k - Cached - Similar pages

“The Catholic Faith” Review of Second Exodus
… show me” kind of insistence demonstrates the practicality of Marty Barrack’s appro …
s defense of the Marian dogmas and of papal primacy and infallibility. …
www.secondexodus.com/html/ bookreviews/reviewthecatholicfaith.htm - 25k - Cached - Similar pages

Evangelizing Protestants
… Photo of Marty Barrack and link to About the Book. … how we know Peter established
his seat in Rome and how the history of the papacy proves its infallibility. …
www.secondexodus.com/html/evangelization/ evangelizingprotestants.htm - 29k - Cached - Similar pages

BOOK REVIEWS - Catholicism as the Completion of Judaism - by …
… show me" kind of insistence demonstrates the practicality of Marty Barrack’s
appro-ach … s defense of the Marian dogmas and of papal primacy and infallibility. …
www.catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals/ Faith/2001-02/books2.html - 46k - Cached - Similar pages

In Statu Viae - Apologetics Articles
… of Papal Primacy; Infallibility of the Church; Papacy & Infallibility Apologetics
Index … A Kosher Ham Finds Christ (Marty Barrack); The Trentecost Experience (Pete …
users.rcn.com/jphigham/apologetics.html - 14k - Cached - Similar pages

Library Index
… HTM - Catholicism Completes Covenant for Jewish Convert Marty Barrack Taken from …
59. Apologetics - INFALLIB.HTM - Dr. Carroll on Papal Infallibility Dr. Warren …
www.ewtn.com/library/indexes/Answers.htm - 98k - Cached - Similar pages

Catholic Documents and Apologetic / General Websites
… Phil Bloom): Simple Catholicism Second Exodus (Marty Barrack: Hebrew Catholics)
Mark P … Thomas Aquinas on papal infallibility, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Msgr. …
ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ24.HTM - 50k - Cached - Similar pages

Catholic Information & Resources
… Ordination of Women Ordinatio Sacerdotalis: an Exercise of Infallibility by Jeffrey …
Information Center (C,A,A) Second Exodus Marty Barrack Evangelizing: Jews …
www.catholic-forum.com/members/ccfjeff/index2.html - 101k - Cached - Similar pages

Rerum Novarum
… Authority or Infallibility Yet Again (aka “Groundhog Day” Dept.) >>. … Second
Exodus - Marty Barrack >>>]. Lisa’s Lighthouse >>>]. …
www.rerum-novarum.blogspot.com/ 2004_03_14_rerum-novarum_archive.html - 101k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages

Apolonio Latar III
… more about them (Church Fathers) than Christ’s Apostles did." – Marty Barrack,
Second Exodus … whether it be the Novus Ordo, hyperdulia, or papal infallibility. …
apolonio.blogspot.com/2003_10_01_apolonio_archive.html - 48k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages

Marty Barrack
Apostolate Web Site: secondexodus.com
Book: secondexodus.com/html/book/buysecondexodus.html
Articles:
secondexodus.com/html/articles/centralarticles.html
Tapes: secondexodus.com/html/speak/talks.html
Story: envoymagazine.com/backissues/1.2/marapril_story3.html

Vatican Docs:
secondexodus.com/html/vaticandocs/centralvaticandocs.html
Vatican Site Map: vatican.va/offices/index.htm

Evangelizing Jews:
secondexodus.com/html/evangelization/evangelizingjews.html

Marian Catechist Web Site: mariancatechist.com

Marty Barrack: Jewish convert to Catholicism - top notch Apologist!

[quote=montanaman]That’s EXACTLY what I mean by unhelpful. Is this infallible? I sincerely hope not. How are we to know?
[/quote]

It isn’t a doctrinal definition - just a piece of legislation that did not succeed in rising above the prevailing phobia of Jews.

Nothing should be held to be an infallible definition, unless this is clearly apparent from the context. This is a law - not a dogma. So, it’s not infallible. ##

The New Advent article on Judaism might also be helpful preparation, especially the last section on “Judaism and Church Legislation,” which begins:

The principal items of Church legislation relative to Judaism have been set forth in connection with the history of the Jews. There remains only to add a few remarks which will explain the apparent severity of certain measures enacted by either popes or councils concerning the Jews, or account for the fact that popular hatred of them so often defeated the beneficent efforts of the Roman pontiffs in their regard.

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