Debating the Gay Marriage Issue. Need help!


#1

Hello, I am a practicing Catholic and I love my faith. I am involved in a gay marriage debate on another forum. I’m feeling a little overwhelmed since I appear to be the only one there who believes in the sanctity of marriage. My posts are pretty quickly rebutted with the usual secular ramblings and selective Bible quotes.

If you feel you can help and join in the conversation - I’d appreciate it! Turning the tide will be easier once the others hear some fresh and traditionally Catholic anchored replies.

forumgarden.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272

You’ll recognize my posts. I’m the only one arguing for the non-secular issues. :slight_smile:


#2

Unfortunately, these are the people who do not have God in their life and see no resoan for it. Therefore, anything that smacks of the spiritual, they jump on it and bash it to death with legal manuvering! So, So Sad.

Go to the home page of Catholic Answers, off to the left and down a bit, it says Gay Marriage. It’s a special report by CA, you should be able to garner enough from there to give to your debater. Hope you can help him take his blinders off - Good Luck!!


#3

Excellent! Thank you for steering me to this resource.

I have found great success on non-religoius forums, however. It seems that a lot of the “regular” folk that frequent non-religious boards are usually more open to spiritual points of view.

I do, run into a wall more than I care to think about though. :wink:

Quite frankly, it’s sobering to think about the amount of people who have had zero exposure to Christianity.


#4

Good luck in your debate.

Last time I looked, God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve…

If you want a more secularist stance, the information is now starting to come in about the tremendous damage that has been done to the family, and thus to society, by “No fault” divorce. Sociologists were promoting no fault as a means of getting people on with their lives when they had “lost” whatever it was they had at the beginning. It was theorized that childrent would be much better off without having two parents together who were always fighting. Research now shows kids of divorce,well past the age of thirty,still dealing with the loss of parents. They are finding that the problems are deep seated and significant, and not isolated to a few children. And now we are about to embark on an even more egregious attack on the family?

From another point of view, there is a lot of talk about “rights”. But where do “rights” come from? Most people think the State. Take a look at the preamble to the Constitution: “We hold these truths to be self evident; that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness…”

The State did not give people the “right” to be married. The family preceeded the State; the state only acknowledged their “right” to be married.

The attempt to be “married” is the attempt of one of the partners in a homosexual relationship to be something they are not: to wit, a person of the opposite sex. One of them will attempt to be the female, submissive to the lead of the male, between two men; or one will attempt to be the male, dominent over the female, between two women. The dynamics of relationship simply work in that direction. They are trying to be what they aren’t. and what of the children? Gays are attempting to say it is no big deal, the kids are fine. We simply have no history to judge this by, except the history of divorce; and that didn’t work!


#5

One argument I haven’t seen but find compelling is the simple fact that by wanting “Marriage and family” homosexuals themselves believe that it is something special and necessary. They aspire to a institution that is a basic desire of human nature. We as Christians would say that it is a natural law written on the hearts of men by God. I believe that deep down, these poor unfortunates truly know that what they are doing is unnatural, thus they first sought a right to practice this disorder and now having that, they seek a sort of de facto approval of their deviance through the courts. They need society to say that they’re okay, that their lifestyle is valid. Why? If they were okay, they would not need to have this approval, they would know this in their hearts. I find it interesting that until women came out of the closet, this wasn’t really an issue. So, it seems to me that these women are seeking what is a natural to women, husband and children. You might also point out to your forum that nearly all the religions he mentioned are opposed to homosexuality, this points to a natural law that all men implicitly understand, outside the guidelines of religion.


#6

Catholic Answers had a great tract on gay marriage that you can link from their home page. This tract is very thorough and logical and it counters every major objection in a big way - take a look, it should help.


#7

[quote=otm]Good luck in your debate.

Last time I looked, God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve…

[/quote]

Although I can understand the sanctity of marriage, I have extreme difficulty seeing homosexuals as evil. Bisexuality, as seems so in fashion today, maybe. A lust for the shear fun of it I can more easily conclude how this is a slap in the face of the sacrement of marriage. But two people who are in love and are truly attracted to one an another physically and emotionally I have more difficulty with.

Although I do not find it difficult to find the perversion and the abnormallity of it, I certainly find it difficult to see the evil. Now before I get anybody in an uproar, I realize that it is intrinsically evil to be counter to Gods plan. However, if one is truly following his/her heart, I find it difficult to find the deliberate evil intension. I simply can’t help but to feel for them and thier situation with genuine love and caring.


#8

[quote=Mijoy2]Although I can understand the sanctity of marriage, I have extreme difficulty seeing homosexuals as evil.

As I understand the Church’s position, homosexuals are not evil, homosexual acts are. A homosexual could remain in good standing with the Church as long as he or she remained celibate. The act itself is unnatural and sinful, however to desire them is a (decidedly homosexual) desire. It’s like a degree above premarital sex between a man and a woman. One may desire it, but as long as we haven’t acted on it, we haven’t commited the sin of lust. That’s leads to why gay marriage is to be condemned by the Church. By seeking marriage rights, they are trying to hijack a sacramental institution which is designed to bring a man and a woman together for the procreation and nurturing of a family. There is nothing procreative in homosexual acts, and by trying to gain marriage rights, they are trying to legitimize their sex…in essence seeking approval in engage in sinful and unnatural behavior.

[/quote]


#9

I see it very simply…and include absolutely no judgement on homosexuality itself.

Marriage is a holy union between a man and a woman. It can be nothing else, this is what it is.
Any other blessed union would require its own name. The resulting relationship would be similar to the marriage between a man and a woman, obviously not the same, as the marriage between a man and a woman in the Church requires the expectation and welcoming of creating children.
The homosexual blessed and committed union could be a legal and acceptable union , blessed if desired and named for its unique relationship.
the reason for the differential naming of the homosexual unions?
Simple.
When you say you are married, this will automatically define that you are in a marriage between man and woman.
When you say you are __________, it is automatically known that you are part of a homosexual legal union.
Definitions are only reasonable.
Notice that I do not offer a suggestion for the name that is needed to define the homosexual union, but I am sure that some wonderful minds can come up with the best idea for this!

.


#10

[quote=Mijoy2]Although I can understand the sanctity of marriage, I have extreme difficulty seeing homosexuals as evil. But two people who are in love and are truly attracted to one an another physically and emotionally I have more difficulty with.

However, if one is truly following his/her heart, I find it difficult to find the deliberate evil intension. I simply can’t help but to feel for them and thier situation with genuine love and caring.
[/quote]

Like someone else has said, being homosexual is not a sin, it’s the act. Just because they sin in committing the homosexual act, they are not evil. If we all were defined as evil based on our own personal sins, then Jesus didn’t die for much. :frowning: Don’t let any Christian tell you otherwise.

That being said, homosexuality is an evil act because it defiles the natural order that God Himself put into place. It’s sad and unfortunate but they don’t have the right to marry, it’s just that simple. Marriage is more than the attitude of “it feels right so it must be right”, it is a social contract that is supposed to ensure the health of society. Since the act itself is evil, marriage between two homosexuals cannot ensure the health of society by its nature.

I hope you won’t be lulled into false compassion and condone these marriages. Love, in the Christian way, for your fellow man (sorry I’m not into “inclusiveness” either), homosexuals included, demands Truth. Condoning gay marriage because gays seem to be so picked on by society is a lie that is damaging to all of us especially the gay community. They deserve to know the Truth - preach it while you can! :thumbsup:


#11

Check out Steven D. Greydanus’s exchange.


#12

Not yet sure on how to link to other forums on this board, but if you search for post started by me, catholicbudgie, you’ll see an email I received that I cut and pasted into the forum on the issue.


#13

[quote=mtr01 As I understand the Church’s position, homosexuals are not evil, homosexual acts are. A homosexual could remain in good standing with the Church as long as he or she remained celibate. The act itself is unnatural and sinful, however to desire them is a (decidedly homosexual) desire. It’s like a degree above premarital sex between a man and a woman. One may desire it, but as long as we haven’t acted on it, we haven’t commited the sin of lust. That’s leads to why gay marriage is to be condemned by the Church. By seeking marriage rights, they are trying to hijack a sacramental institution which is designed to bring a man and a woman together for the procreation and nurturing of a family. There is nothing procreative in homosexual acts, and by trying to gain marriage rights, they are trying to legitimize their sex…in essence seeking approval in engage in sinful and unnatural behavior.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, in my original post I misspoke. I am aware of this teaching of the church. Homosexuals are not evil, acting on homosexual desire is. However what I meant to say is I have difficulty seeing homosexuality as evil. Disordered yes, abnormal yes, maybe misdirected yes. But evil…well as I said, I have difficutly.

Given the nature of the churches teaching, what we ask of our homosexual brothers and sisters is that they live out thier lives without succumbing to the tremendous need of intimacy with another human being that most of us not only enjoy but base our life here on earth on. Christians ask of the homosexual to live a life alone, void of any chance of human intimacy. I know this is not impossible, but it must be terribly lonely and painful. I seldom hear this view mentioned or addressed. We just say, get over it.

I’m in the camp of believing it is a biological issue, not a learned or environment one (at least for many). Therefore I don’t think they can just train themselves in some way into becoming heterosexual.

For the homosexuals that remain celebate, they are carrying a cross of a magnitue that the majority of us hopefully will never have to. For those that succumb, my heart and prayers goes out to them.

Many Christians seem to find it easy to look negatively, as opposed to compassionately on our homosexual brothers and sisters in Christ. (I’m not refering to this thread, just generally speaking). When I witness this I feel shame and sorrow.
[/quote]


#14

Look at it this way: even within marriage, any contraception is also evil, if it is not natural family planning. Someone like me, who is outside of marriage and single, I am required to live chastely according to that status as well. That means no fooling around (even with MYSELF!) so how is it that the homosexual who is not to practice his deviation lives with a burden any more than mine? Yes, I could go and be married and solve the problem for myself. A homosexual, though, cannot, because no life-giving end is achieved by a homosexual act. It is counter to God’s plan and natural law. It inverts and opposes directly what God has set in place. It goes against order. I am not inclined to be married, so I remain celibate knowing that this is what God desires of me in my single state. It is no less challenging than being not inclined to heterosexuality and remaining chaste. We have a choice to perform sexual acts or not.


#15

[quote=Cherub]Look at it this way: even within marriage, any contraception is also evil, if it is not natural family planning. Someone like me, who is outside of marriage and single, I am required to live chastely according to that status as well. That means no fooling around (even with MYSELF!) so how is it that the homosexual who is not to practice his deviation lives with a burden any more than mine? Yes, I could go and be married and solve the problem for myself. A homosexual, though, cannot, because no life-giving end is achieved by a homosexual act. It is counter to God’s plan and natural law. It inverts and opposes directly what God has set in place. It goes against order. I am not inclined to be married, so I remain celibate knowing that this is what God desires of me in my single state. It is no less challenging than being not inclined to heterosexuality and remaining chaste. We have a choice to perform sexual acts or not.
[/quote]

With all due respect Cherub, I think you missed my point entirely. You say yourself in this post, “I am not inclined to be married”. You can’t directly compare your situation with that of the true (biologically disposed) homosexual who (assuming some are biologically disposed), if it were not for the disorder, WOULD in fact chose to be married. Your celibacy is a choice. Your faith is strong and has some history. A homosexual may have not yet come to a full, rich faith. (Of this I know much because I spent the first 45 years of my life with little faith). Wherever they may be in thier respective journey they are thrown right into the proverbial lions den of self sacrifice. For all of us who harbor at any given day, some doubt, think of the battle with this doubt when you are feeling so alone.

My claim was only, it is a huge cross to bare. One of which I have tremendous compassion for. We are in agreement for the most part. I agree, that to be true to God the homosexual must remain celebate for a lifetime with no hope EVER of human intimacy. I think it is the attitude of some Christians that gets my goat, not the doctrine itself.

Very often it is easy to see through the “love the sinner not the sin” statement by hearing the true tone and/or looking in the eye of the one saying it, who is not necassarily being genuine to the former part of that statement, sadly enough.


#16

[quote=ThomasWR]Hello, I am a practicing Catholic and I love my faith. I am involved in a gay marriage debate on another forum. I’m feeling a little overwhelmed since I appear to be the only one there who believes in the sanctity of marriage. My posts are pretty quickly rebutted with the usual secular ramblings and selective Bible quotes.

If you feel you can help and join in the conversation - I’d appreciate it! Turning the tide will be easier once the others hear some fresh and traditionally Catholic anchored replies.

forumgarden.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272

You’ll recognize my posts. I’m the only one arguing for the non-secular issues. :slight_smile:
[/quote]


#17

[quote=Mijoy2]Although I can understand the sanctity of marriage, I have extreme difficulty seeing homosexuals as evil. Bisexuality, as seems so in fashion today, maybe. A lust for the shear fun of it I can more easily conclude how this is a slap in the face of the sacrement of marriage. But two people who are in love and are truly attracted to one an another physically and emotionally I have more difficulty with.

Although I do not find it difficult to find the perversion and the abnormallity of it, I certainly find it difficult to see the evil. Now before I get anybody in an uproar, I realize that it is intrinsically evil to be counter to Gods plan. However, if one is truly following his/her heart, I find it difficult to find the deliberate evil intension. I simply can’t help but to feel for them and thier situation with genuine love and caring.
[/quote]

Just because one claims to be in “love” does not make it so. I can “feel” I am a camel, but objectively I am a human. I may need medical help. I may need spiritual help. I may be a child of God, but I am dead wrong.

Following one’s “heart” means doing God’s will. It means following the Holy Spirit, not the human spirit and not the evil spirit. We need more plain talk and less pop culture acceptence.

Folks who are slaves to this “gay” mentality are deceived. They need our prayers, our support and Catholic medical help.


#18

"Given the nature of the churches teaching, what we ask of our homosexual brothers and sisters is that they live out thier lives without succumbing to the tremendous need of intimacy with another human being that most of us not only enjoy but base our life here on earth on. "

With God, all thngs are possible.

“I’m in the camp of believing it is a biological issue, not a learned or environment one (at least for many). Therefore I don’t think they can just train themselves in some way into becoming heterosexual.”

Most honest people in science agree there is no consensus in the literature to support the idea that Homosexuality is biologic. In fact, it points in the other direction. In any event, the group Courage does great work in helping those afflicted with Same Sex Attraction DISORDER.

In away, I wish it could be proven that it has a biologic basis, then we could muster our energy to eradict such an aweful disease.
[/quote]


#19

Refer them to these bible quotes Romans Chapter 1, verses 24 thru 29. Also Leviticus Chapter 18, verse 22. also Leviticus Chapter 20, verse 13. These are bible passages that bluntly forbid homosexual behavior by GOD and in Chapter 20, verse 13 even demands the life of the sinner. However you may be dealing with a bunch of pagans. Always remember homosexual behavior began in recorded history with the pagan greeks and was passed on to the Romans. Also point out that in Genesis it states “God created them Man and Woman and told them to go forth and multiply. He did not create them Man and Man or Woman and Woman. Human sexuality is a gift from God designed strickly for the creation of human life. Not Pleasure. God made it so Pleasurable so we would be powerfully inclined to create new life. This is not necessary for God to create new life but his desire for us to share in his creative ability. As John the Baptist told the Pharises and Sadgacess. " you call yourselfs children of Abraham I tell you God can create children of Abraham out of these rocks”. If God so desires he can create fully grown adults instantly out of nothing and have them appear out of thin air. Homosexual sex is based on nothing but pleasure. There is no way of creating anything except aids and other sexual diseases. Remember Aids initiated in Homosexual men. Probably God’s response to their sin. God Bless and Good Luck, Tom Crowley, Erie, Pa., JMJ7610@adelphia.net


#20

[quote=reggie]One argument I haven’t seen but find compelling is the simple fact that by wanting “Marriage and family” homosexuals themselves believe that it is something special and necessary. They aspire to a institution that is a basic desire of human nature. We as Christians would say that it is a natural law written on the hearts of men by God. I believe that deep down, these poor unfortunates truly know that what they are doing is unnatural, thus they first sought a right to practice this disorder and now having that, they seek a sort of de facto approval of their deviance through the courts. They need society to say that they’re okay, that their lifestyle is valid. Why? If they were okay, they would not need to have this approval, they would know this in their hearts. I find it interesting that until women came out of the closet, this wasn’t really an issue. So, it seems to me that these women are seeking what is a natural to women, husband and children. You might also point out to your forum that nearly all the religions he mentioned are opposed to homosexuality, this points to a natural law that all men implicitly understand, outside the guidelines of religion.
[/quote]

Amen. What they are seeking is not “marriage” - an institution that homosexuals have openly disparaged for decades - but legitimization of a mockery of marriage.

They want our approval. When we did not give it voluntarily, they forced it upon us in court.

Another argument - they are not seeking the same right that everyone else has. Everyone has the right to marry a person of legal age of the opposite sex; what they are seeking is the right to marry a person of the same sex. That’s a *different * right, and we (society) have no obligation to give it to them.


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