Debating with protestants who just won't listen


#749

I will research what you say here guanophore. Something is not quite right about it. But thanks. It is interesting stuff.


#750

On the contrary, it is examination that will often draw people into the Church. Thinking persons and persons such as yourself who have had a powerful spiritual experience, have no choice but to examine the claims of the Church. This is part of what it means to study to show yourself approved.

Fighting against God would require that one respond in defiance to what the HS has taught, and infallibly protects in the Church. This can be one outcome of “examination”, but certainly does not have to be.

When they heard this, they were furious and wanted to put them to death. 34But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law, who was honored by all the people, stood up in the Sanhedrin and ordered that the men be put outside for a little while. 35Then he addressed the Sanhedrin: “Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men. 36Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. 37After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered. 38Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. 39But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.” Acts 5

No worries, tgG, if the CC is not of God, it will amount to nothing.


#751

I did not say that. You are not hearing me on this point. I said that neither Jesus nor his disciples recognized the Apocrypha contained within the Septuagint. Obviously Jesus quoted from the Greek text. Obviously this was the prevailing language of His day.


#752

When you say “these books” to which are you referring?.. Are we not talking about the Septuagint translated into Greek from the Hebrew? Are we not talking about the narrow split between the Apocrypha=12 books and (again) the O.T. books translated into Greek? …

This distinction was made by Jesus Himself who never quoted from the Apocrypha books, even though they were contained within the Septuagint.


#753

Let me remind you of something guanophore, I am on the defense here to a web site that paints protestants in a very bad light. I am not the aggressor but the defender. I do not have a problem with the CC functioning as the CC. I am okay with that. But “functioning” as the Church the way you do it, is not all that you do. You also tell me that my understanding and my way of functioning as the Church is wrong and I must function like you with the threat of hell behind each demand. I cannot speak, or represent other protestants who may throw it right back in your face, I don’t care how you worship that is your business. But I feel it is my duty to respond to the misrepresentations found here about all protestants and our doctrine.

So, no worries guanophore, if the reformed movement is not of God, it will amount to nothing.


#754

Just pray for them. There is not much you can do for these people. It is a lost cause trying to speak with them.


#755

Yes. I now see my error in my above statement. The Septuagint contained the 39 books (or in the case of the Hebrew cannon 24 books based on how they were combined) and was all translation to Greek. My apology for such a poorly written sentence. But my point still stands. Let Jesus by His quotes found in the N.T. tell us what is the word of God and what isn’t. This He did.


#756

We too believe that baptism seals a believer and makes that person a member of Christ and his One body, the church. We too believe that a person who has thus been saved can reject their gift and spurn the grace of God. The “falling away from grace” is also believed possible in our camp! but the phrase is taken out of Galatians 5 where Paul made it clear what he meant by that.

“You are severed from Christ, you would be justified by the law, you are fallen away from grace.” Ga. 5:4

People who seek to be justified (made righteous) by keeping the strict code of the law will inevitably sever themselves from Christ and His grace.

The question is: severed to what capacity: eternally, or temporally? We do know that Paul was talking to people already “in Christ.” Yet someone bewitched them into believing they could be justified by keeping the law. Their own willingness to go along with the deception kept them from enjoying all that God had for them. In that sense they were severed.
Much like the prodigal son who left the fellowship of his father’s house and squandered away his inheritance, yet he never ceased to be the son of his father.


#757

Apache75, are you trying to convert me to Jesus Christ?.. I already except Him. Are you trying to convert me to the CC? I am already a member of the one true and universal body of Christ to which Christ is the head. what is the cause?


#758

But the "Peter-petra " that He found the Church on, was in a feminine gender and the word means large rock. Since Jesus could not have meant a physical rock, the feminine rendering shows that He was in a metaphor. In it’s context Jesus was referring to the truth that He had just uttered in the larger context. The notion that Christ was going to found His Church on Peter, the man, flies right in the face of every scripture we know where Christ is the only founder and chief shepherd over His flock. Our command is to walk by faith and not by sight. Therefore we learn how to follow our invisible savior in the power of the holy Spirit.


#759

I agree. They considered the whole Septuagint to contain inspired Scripture, including the Deuterocanonical Books. https://www.scripturecatholic.com/deuterocanonical-books-new-testament/

I am sure this position would support your argument that it was right to exclude these books. Unfortunately, the evidence does not support your assertion.

Indeed, you do get swarmed by a lot of rabid Catholics. It happens to all Reformed Christians who come here. But to say that you are not an aggressor is not entirely accurate. You have made repeated, hostile, and calumnous remarks here. You bear false witness against the Catholic faith, which we find aggressive.

I did not realize that you were functioning as an entire Church tgG! But I would not characterize it as “wrong” in any case, just inadequate/partial. That being said, it should also be noted that Protestants, who have less than the fullness of faith, often do more with that part they have than the majority of Catholics.

This is just another false witness, tgG. I have never told you that you must function “like me” or even like the CC. I have certainly not threatened you with hell, or made any kind of demands of you. I have asked you repeatedly to stop spreading lies about what Catholics believe. These requests were not made in a demanding manner or accompanied by any threats.

Indeed, we value this very much here at CAF.

Such a concept would seem to imply that the person was attached to His grace at some point, would it not?


#760

Catholics believe that we must be in a state of grace to be able to enter heaven, as nothing unclean can enter heaven. If you think a person can remain pure who is severed from grace…well, I don’t know what to say about that.

This is a common argument without any foundation. Matthew was written first in Aramaic, and translated into Greek. In Aramaic, rock is Cephas, and there are no male or female genders to the words. In Greek, “rock” is a feminine gender word, so it is translated Petra. It is an argument without any foundation.

On the contrary, he was standing next to a HUGE rock when he made this statement. He could have chosen to make the statement anywhere they travelled. Here is a pic of that huge rock wall
http://www.defendingthebride.com/ch/ca/rock1.html

I dont disagree about the metaphorical part. Christ is THE Rock, the statement of Peter’s faith is also a rocky statement but if you look at the small handful of times that God changes a person’s name in Scripture, you can clearly see that it was always related to a massive change in their identity and mission.

One also has to look at the historical evidence. The early Church all believed that Jesus meant to call Peter the Rock.

There you go, saying that Catholic beliefs “fly in the face of Scripture” again tgG! Then you wonder why I keep having to remind you that the NT was written by, for, and about Catholics, and that is why there is nothing in it that is not Catholic.

Yes, Jesus is the chief shepherd. Jesus grafted Peter into Himself as the cornerstone, and gave him the care and feeding of His flock. If you think following the successor of Peter means we walk by sight and no longer by faith then you are misunderstanding the meaning of obedience. Have you ever had to obey someone/something you did not like, or with which you did not agree?

I agree. The successor of Peter and the teachings of Holy Mother Church help us do this.


#761

And that isn’t what I said, but rather was someone’s misinterpretation of what I said…

Which is why I prefer learning Christ’s teachings from the Church HE built, through which He ACTUALLY speaks to us. (Luke 10:16)


#762

Understanding that while here on earth there is hope, and that we are to pray for EVERYONE…

In Matthew 25 Jesus makes it clear that the sheep and goats will be separated, forever -

The goats to eternal punishment, and the sheep to eternal life. (Matthew 25:46)


#763

Uhhh. This is very cleaver but you did not make your point here. Why bother correlating between the N.T. writings with a book from the Apocrypha, contained in the Septuagint?..

Why not just go straight to the Apocrypha itself and quote it. This is what the Disciples and Jesus DID NOT DO.

The Apocrypha books may contain some of the same answers or the same conclusions as, for instance, Matthew’s gospel, but this is not the same thing as Jesus actually considering those books to be the word of God. It was all within Jesus power to quote directly from the Apocrypha and call it the word of God if that is what He believed. But He never once took that opportunity, yet he did quote from every major prophet found in the O.T. Those quotes are found in the N.T. and thus further validate His intentions when he called it the “word of God.”


#764

The evidence is Jesus’ testimony Himself. Is not His actions and declarations enough for you?


#765

If I find testimony or my conclusions about something to be contrary to the word of God, I usually capitulate and apologize for my actions, including words that may be inappropriate.
But as I heard on this site one time, “if the kitchen is too hot, one can get out.” Let’s face it, theology and politics are two subject that stir emotions and convictions. It is pretty normal stuff. My intention is never to deceive, but to enlighten, especially when I see the (non-C) Church misrepresented and demonized.


#766

Well, you are generous to say this, but it has a back-hand in the end.

Only you (the CC) discern my faith as inferior because you come from the position that the CC is infallible and my answers to not line up with you. This in of itself is a self-deception and probably the CC’s greatest weakness.

Humility at the highest level is lacking and has been for centuries. Remember the Pharisees and Sadducees were the elitist experts of Judaism. They were the PHD’s of their time, yet, they were absolutely blind to the coming of their Messiah. how is that?.. after all, if we grade things on one’s IQ level, they would have not only been able to see His coming, but gladly roll out the red carpet for Him. But these so-called expert theologians were spiritually blind. And there blindness was leading the blind into the pit.


#767

no. no I wasn’t speaking about you personally. But surely many people on this site.


#768

Honestly, how can you ask this? There was no need to correlate these prior to the Reformation. The whole church, both East and West, accepted the Alexandrian Septuagint as inspired Scripture because that was the collection of Sacred Writings used by Jesus and the Apostles.

Nowadays, we have to correlate the NT writings with the Deuterocanonicals because persons like yourself, steeped in Calvanism and anti-Catholic rhetoric, deny this simple fact of history.

Or have you forgotten that you have repeatedly asserted that Jesus did not use these as Scripture?

For Jesus and the Apostles, as for all the Church prior to the Reformation, they are not “apocryphal”. On the contrary, they are considered inspired, along with the rest of the Septuagint.

I agree. The ante-Nicean Fathers are full of such quotes, but we don’t consider them on the same level as Scripture.

Don’t you think boycotting the Festival of Lights would also be a better testimony that this feast was not “valid” or coming from Divine inspiration?

Yes. His references to the Deuterocanon, and the HS leading the Apostles to reference them, along with His participation in the Holy Festival of Lights is sufficient for me!


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