Debating with protestants who just won't listen


#809

You sound like you are describing a game of Telephone! I think you have underestimated the Power of God to watch over His word. Again you are denying the validity of Isaiah 55:11. The Sacred Traditions, consisting of the Word of God transmitted by the Apostles to the Church is preserved infallibly by the Holy Spirit. How can you suggest that the Holy Spirit would allow human failings to contaminate the Word of God?

It is true that a lot has changed. Culture, technology, science, politics. And yes, we can go back to inspired Scripture, but it does not contain all that God wanted us to know. If it did, why did Jesus bother to establish a Church? Was He just entertaining Himself because tiddlywinks had not yet been created? Did He expect the Church to fall to the ground after the Scriptures were penned? This is what you seem to want us to believe.

Although we see references to Mary’s sinless state in Scripture, since people who received their faith whole and entire from the Apostles do not extract doctrines from the text, we are not concerned that all there is to be known may not be recorded specifically in Scripture. The same is true of the Trinity, the hypostatic union, celebration of the Lord’s Day on Sunday (rather than observing the Sabbath), and the table of contents for the Scriptures. All these things, which you seem to accept without question, have come to you through that same sacred tradition. If you cannot trust that Sacred Tradition, on what basis to you not observe the Sabbath?

My dear sir, you have given an excellent example of why the Reformation is still very much before our eyes. Except that the Reformers did still hold to infant baptism, and veneration of Mary, which subsequent children of the Reformation have jettisoned.

This begs the question, tgG. Why are you here at CAF? You say that you are so busy you cannot read all the posts, yet you continue to come here to strive with Catholics. How do you know that the Holy Spirit is not calling you home?


#810

Wasn’t Barnabas also referred to as an apostle?


#811

Not hardly. Isaiah 55 was a prophetic word 700 years before Christ. God’s usual way of speaking to his people was through his prophets. Not sure what that has to do with tradition.


#812

Depending on how you read the text, the word “apostle” is also associated with Timothy, Silas and a few others in the NT.

I think this serves as more support for the fact that the visible, authoritative Church was meant to continue. The Church’s power to bind and loose certainly didn’t end with the death of the last apostle to live contemporary with Christ.

But they all required recognition from the visible Church, without exception. It was how a legitimate apostle and false prophet were told apart.


#813

Well maybe we are only disagreeing in mere semantics. But the Apostles and all writers of the N.T. we’re inspired to write God’s word down. They did. Tradition may have played a part until the Gospel story was written and passed among them. I thank God that he inspired the writers to get the story down on parchment because of the weakness of men who twist the story. Aren’t you?


#814

But the real problem here is the tradition that came into sight centuries later that directly contradict the inspired scripture. This is the elephant in the room.


#815

You mean that what God said isn’t enough! He was found in lack?


#816

Sure this is probably a huge problem in our day and age, but people back then lived with transferring traditions and teachings from the mouth of one to ears of another. They prided themselves on the ability to get every single detail correct. I’m not sure why you can’t accept the fact that no single Church had a complete Bible until long after the death of the Apostles. You act like the the Church in Corinth sat around reading John’s Gospel in 60 AD. :thinking:

How do you know a lot has changed? Not to mention aren’t all of us going back to inspired scripture with our arguments? You act like we are sitting here spouting out oral traditions with no Biblical evidence. The fact that we all go back to what Paul wanted us to know and come to different conclusions on what we believe he taught is pretty hard evidence that he did not intend for us (the common man) to interpret his writings.

Not sure why you keep bringing it up. Once again, I have shown you this over and over again from scripture. The only thing you are able to prove is that you do not agree with my interpretation and I don’t agree with yours. How does our disagreement on interpretation prove anything to the entire Christian world? Is our disagreements St. Paul’s intention from the beginning?


#817

Whether Jesus establish the church or not his word is enough. God may use his church to proclaim his truth, unless we filter out that truth and replace it with things God never said. Some vessels are for Honor while others are for dishonor.


#818

And yet you have been unable to show us this elephant. All you can do is point to your own disagreement on interpretation and say see look there it is a “direct contradiction”.

Please, look up the definition of a contradiction and then come back to me with some hard proof of a single teaching from the Catholic Church that the Bible teaches the exact opposite.


#819

I’ve given several even recently. But it does not matter to you.


#820

Paul taught that everyone is a sinner except Christ. You teach that Mary too was sinless, and thus you plunge the CC into contradiction. I have a list of things


#821

Then list them already instead of being coy with them.


#822

I’ve listed them before but it all falls on deaf ears. But so that I’m historically accurate I will wait until I get home to my desk.


#823

And you teach that babies are sinless and can get to heaven without being born again. So either St. Paul was using exaggeration to make a point of all you Jews and Gentiles sin without a distinction or we both are wrong.

You either have to admit there are exceptions to this verse or you have to admit that St. Paul was including babies in his “ALL”.

You choose

God bless


#824

Well if you can produce a baby who sins then you’ve won me. Inspired scripture says only little about it. So I refuse to conclude where the scriptures do not conclude. If you want to speak ahead of scripture, you go ahead.


#825

Well if babies were included in his thought then Paul would need to produce a sinning baby. I will study Jewish custom on this.


#826

So I guess you agree All might not mean All?

But you have no problem concluding that St. Paul included Mary in his all, even though scripture says nothing about it?


#827

That’s the whole point of my argument babies aren’t included in his thought.

The Chapter 3 St. Paul is dealing with Jews who think they are better of than Gentiles because they are God’s chosen people. It’s in this context that Paul says “ALL”. Kind of like Y’ALL, every single one of you out there that I am speaking to. He is not speaking about every single person on the face of the earth in this context.
Every single person on the face of the earth isn’t even included in his thought when he made this statement, because the “ALL” was the people he was writing this letter to.

Once again this just proves my point. The only contradiction you can find is in your own private interpretation of scripture.

Just curiously, where does St. Paul make an exception for Christ in this verse?


#828

There is no contradiction nor can you show one. I have gone through the thread. I could have missed it so maybe you can repost any i missed. You mentioned the Eucharist which of course is very scriptural. We may disagree on what scripture says but it doesn’t contradict. You also mentioned purgatory. There is much in scripture that points to a purging.
Read this than come back that it isn’t scriptural.
Purgatory

You also believe that the Immaculate Conception is not in scripture.
Immaculate Conception
If you read this, than you should be aware that there is no elephant but a disagreement as to how to understand scripture,

The true elephant in the room is Acts 8:31

29 And the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
30 And Philip ran to him, and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
31 And he said, How can I, except some one shall guide me? And he besought Philip to come up and sit with him.

Scripture does not support the view of self-interpretation of scripture.


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