Deconstructing Nation Building

amconmag.com/2005/2005_10_24/article1.html

Nation-building Military Occupations by the
United States and Great Britain, 1850-2000

U.S. Occupations

Austria 1945-1955 success
Cuba 1898-1902 failure
Cuba 1906-1909 failure
Cuba 1917-1922 failure
Dominican Republic 1911-1924 failure
Dominican Republic 1965-1967 success
Grenada 1983-1985 success
Haiti 1915-1934 failure
Haiti 1994-1996 failure
Honduras 1924 failure
Italy 1943-1945 success
Japan 1945-1952 success
Lebanon 1958 failure
Lebanon 1982-1984 failure
Mexico 1914-1917 failure
Nicaragua 1909-1910 failure
Nicaragua 1912-1925 failure
Nicaragua 1926-1933 failure
Panama 1903-1933 failure
Panama 1989-1995 success
Philippines 1898-1946 success
Somalia 1992-1994 failure
South Korea 1945-1961 failure
West Germany 1945-1952 success

British Occupations

Botswana 1886-1966 success
Brunei 1888-1984 failure
Burma (Myanmar) 1885-1948 failure
Cyprus 1914-1960 failure
Egypt 1882-1922 failure
Fiji 1874-1970 success
Ghana 1886-1957 failure
Iraq 1917-1932 failure
Iraq 1941-1947 failure
Jordan 1921-1956 failure
Kenya 1894-1963 failure
Lesotho 1884-1966 failure
Malawi (Nyasaland) 1891-1964 failure
Malaysia 1909-1957 successMaldives 1887-1976 success
Nigeria 1861-1960 failure
Palestine 1917-1948 failure
Sierra Leone 1885-1961 failure
Solomon Islands 1893-1978 success
South Yemen (Aden) 1934-1967 failure
Sudan 1899-1956 failure
Swaziland 1903-1968 failure
Tanzania 1920-1963 failure
Tonga 1900-1970 success
Uganda 1894-1962 failure
Zambia (N. Rhodesia) 1891-1964 failure
Zimbabwe (S. Rhodesia) 1888-1980 failure

[mod note: changed thread title to reflect original article title, not sub-title]

[quote=mdzialo1]amconmag.com/2005/2005_10_24/article1.html

Nation-building Military Occupations by the
United States and Great Britain, 1850-2000

U.S. Occupations

Austria 1945-1955 success
Cuba 1898-1902 failure
Cuba 1906-1909 failure
Cuba 1917-1922 failure
Dominican Republic 1911-1924 failure
Dominican Republic 1965-1967 success
Grenada 1983-1985 success
Haiti 1915-1934 failure
Haiti 1994-1996 failure
Honduras 1924 failure
Italy 1943-1945 success
Japan 1945-1952 success
Lebanon 1958 failure
Lebanon 1982-1984 failure
Mexico 1914-1917 failure
Nicaragua 1909-1910 failure
Nicaragua 1912-1925 failure
Nicaragua 1926-1933 failure
Panama 1903-1933 failure
Panama 1989-1995 success
Philippines 1898-1946 success
Somalia 1992-1994 failure
South Korea 1945-1961 failure
West Germany 1945-1952 success

[/quote]

I would argue that South Korea is a success. I think they would too

I would argue that Lebanon 2005 is a success

I would argue that Afghanistan is a success (or will be in a couple more years)

I would also argue that your list shows we are getting better at it.

We better, because we really don’t have much choice in the matter.

South Korea presents an interesting lesson in the effectiveness of nation building. Beginning in 1945, when U.S. troops landed, the United States was heavily involved in guiding political decisions in South Korea. This political involvement essentially ceased after 1961, and the South Koreans were allowed to go their own way politically. This way proved to be a military dictatorship under General Park Chung-Hee, which lasted until his murder in 1979. Thereupon followed two coups, a violent uprising in Kwangju, and many bloody street demonstrations. By 1985, however, the suppression of civil liberties had been greatly relaxed and competitive elections were held. Since that time, South Korea can be called a democracy (albeit a noisy one with plenty of corruption). So here is a case where 16 years of American tutelage brought failure in terms of democratic nation building, while the country evolved to democracy on its own 25 years after American involvement in local politics ceased.

Overall, the results indicate that military intervention succeeded in leaving behind democracies in 14 cases—27 percent of the time. The conclusion, then, is that nation building by force is generally unsuccessful. A president who went around the world invading countries to make them democratic would fail most of the time. One group of countries that seem especially resistant to democracy-building efforts are the Arab lands. There have been nine interventions in Arab countries in the past century. In no case did stable democracy follow the military occupation…

Glad to see you’re starting to think of timetables. Are you saying that in two more years we can leave the democratic success story in Afghanistan? Or are you just kidding? When can we leave Korea?

The clock is ticking for Bush now. He’s got about six months to figure out we won and get out (In April, William F. Buckley, predicted Bush can’t go on like he is in Iraq for another year).

[quote=mdzialo1]Glad to see you’re starting to think of timetables. Are you saying that in two more years we can leave the democratic success story in Afghanistan? Or are you just kidding? When can we leave Korea?

The clock is ticking for Bush now. He’s got about six months to figure out we won and get out (In April, William F. Buckley, predicted Bush can’t go on like he is in Iraq for another year).
[/quote]

You don’t build nations on the clock. I am not an expert in this field, but from what I have read, each activity in nation building runs by its own time table depending on national history, infrastructure, culture, etc. Afghanistan was in the stone ages when we came in. They still don’t have decent roads to get around the country. It will take a very long time before the West can expect them to adequately stand on their own and participate in the global community of nations. Currently the US is in the process of handing the defense of Afghanistan over to NATO.

If you are really interested in this topic, I highly recommend the book: Blueprint for Action : A Future Worth Creating by Thomas P.M. Barnett. By the way, Barnett is a liberal Democrat (if that helps) and a Catholic.

As far as Iraq is concerned, you need to realize the Iraqi Army and Security forces are rapidly coming online. Things are chaning in Iraq at a very high pace. Not only security wise, but politically. I expect a very different Iraq in 2 years.

Again, nation building takes a long time. Look at Bosnia (which for some reason is not in your list of accomplishments), Clinton told us we would be there for 5 months, tops ;). That was really a silly statement to make.

If you want to keep up on the security progress in Iraq, you might start to frequent this blog: billroggio.com/

Well we are beginning to bring troops out of Germany and Japan. Maybe we can pull out of Korea next.

[quote=Joe Kelley]Well we are beginning to bring troops out of Germany and Japan. Maybe we can pull out of Korea next.
[/quote]

We need to.

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