Defend our Church


#1

I hope someone can help with this. A person I was having a conversation, someone who is becoming a deacon in the Evangelical Church, made a comment that they are more circumspect at their service than we are at Our Mass. The kicker was when I have to answer why the Pope was recently seen praying at the Jewish synagogue. He was praying with them. He was rather scandalized by this. His point being that as an Espicopalian he would never attend a Jewish prayer service because they do not accept Jesus as the Messiah. I thought til recently in our conversations that he was thinking about conversion the the True Faith. How do I explain this to him?
Thanks, Dawn


#2

I’m not sure if this helps, but Jesus said “The Father and I are one.” Since the Jews pray to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, they are praying to the same God we are. I don’t see a problem with praying together.

There was a dear lady in our Church who was invited to go to synagogue with a friend. As she sat there praying with them, she said silently: “Hello, Heavenly Father, please say hello to my Jesus for me!”


#3

[quote=cathmonarchmom]I hope someone can help with this. A person I was having a conversation, someone who is becoming a deacon in the Evangelical Church, made a comment that they are more circumspect at their service than we are at Our Mass. The kicker was when I have to answer why the Pope was recently seen praying at the Jewish synagogue. He was praying with them. He was rather scandalized by this. His point being that as an Espicopalian he would never attend a Jewish prayer service because they do not accept Jesus as the Messiah. I thought til recently in our conversations that he was thinking about conversion the the True Faith. How do I explain this to him?
Thanks, Dawn
[/quote]

Does your friend think this is some sort of heresy?
I played in an orchestra that held a concert in a Jewish synagogue. I had to weak the yamaka (spelling) and listen to their service. Did I sin?


#4

[quote=Sirach14]Does your friend think this is some sort of heresy?
I played in an orchestra that held a concert in a Jewish synagogue. I had to weak the yamaka (spelling) and listen to their service. Did I sin?
[/quote]

Of course not.


#5

**How about the greatest commandment of all

“Love thy neighbor as thyself”

Sara**


#6

[quote=cathmonarchmom]I hope someone can help with this. A person I was having a conversation, someone who is becoming a deacon in the Evangelical Church, made a comment that they are more circumspect at their service than we are at Our Mass. The kicker was when I have to answer why the Pope was recently seen praying at the Jewish synagogue. He was praying with them. He was rather scandalized by this. His point being that as an Espicopalian he would never attend a Jewish prayer service because they do not accept Jesus as the Messiah. I thought til recently in our conversations that he was thinking about conversion the the True Faith. How do I explain this to him?
Thanks, Dawn
[/quote]

It is hard to explain to someone who is not given to subtleties or nuances.

The Church firmly believes that salvation is through Christ. It also professes that how God accomplishes that is not as clear as some would have it to be.

There is also the issue that God has never broken His covenants; and as those covenants by and large are made with the Jews, and we worship the same God (interestingly some don’t seem to think we do), praying to that same God seems to make sense.

Not sure how much that helps; you might look at the documents of Vatican 2 for more specifics.


#7

[quote=cathmonarchmom] A person I was having a conversation, someone who is becoming a deacon in the Evangelical Church, made a comment that they are more circumspect at their service than we are at Our Mass.
[/quote]

Actually, I agree with the Protestant observation on this, as I do with the Eastern Orthdox observation on it. I went to Church thinking that I was going to go to a decent Mass, and I saw extremely shabbily dressed hippies with long hair and earrings, male and female at the altar with enormous boxes, which were supposed to be speakers and with all kinds of elctronic musical instrumentation. they started blaring out some type of loud obnoxioux horrendous noise, which I guess is supposed to be religous music??? and I am sorry, but midway betweeen the Mass, I had to leave. I can’t take it, and as a Catholic is really is very difficult, if not impossible, for me to beleive that it is a mortal sin and we will go to hell and eternal hellfire, if we do not attend a Mass like such as I attended (partially) on that Sunday.
[font=Arial][size=2]It is not only Protestants who have noticed this, but also the Estern Orthodox:[/size][/font]
“The Roman liturgical tradition has disintegrated aesthetically, and as the beauty of worship disappears, so does awe. Prayer is a teacher, and minimized, modernized prayer fails to teach very much. It is our rich, historic, and theologically packed liturgical tradition that is the treasure of Orthodoxy. How might that change if we blended with a church that has rejected so many ancient traditions of Christian worship–fasts, rites, mystery, and poetry?”

“Drop in on your local Roman Rite parish and witness hand-waving “praise” masses, cookies for children during the Eucharist, interpretive dancers fluttering down the aisles, lame “Peter, Paul and Mary”-style folk music, and all similar trappings of post-Vatican II worship. It’s not something we Orthodox want to go near. Nor do some Catholic churches’ New Age-flavored classes in Zen meditation and enneagram spirituality have much appeal to people who call themselves “Orthodox” for a reason.

Disneyland exists, but do we all want to move there?”
[font=Times New Roman]Father Ambrose has written:“There is an article about this, spread across two messages.*

Part 1

[font=Times New Roman]http://forums.catholic.com/showpost…52&postcount=37*

[/font]Part 2*

[font=Times New Roman]http://forums.catholic.com/showpost…53&postcount=38*

[/font][/font]


#8

St Paul said that he became all things to all men in order to spread the gospel.

In other words, without compromising the faith one tiny bit, St Paul went to meet people of all beliefs in order to let them know about Jesus. Surely this is what the Pope is trying to do?


#9

Although the Christian understanding of God is more developed than the Jewish understanding, Christians and Jews worship the same God: the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of Moses, and of David. As St. Paul says in Acts 24:13-14:
I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the law or written in the prophets, 14having a hope in God which these [Jews] themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust.
If your friend reads the Acts of the Apostles he will see that the first Christians frequented the Temple in Jerusalem and Jewish synagogues. For example, it says of the first Christians:
46And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they partook of food with glad and generous hearts, 47praising God and having favor with all the people. (Acts 2:46-47)


#10

Yes, it is very easy to trot out the worst examples of worship reverence of people one disagrees with versus one’s best examples. It is not much of a starter. There are many beautiful white sepulchers to choose from.

Scott


#11

To Stanley123:

I must respectfully say that your example of a horrifyingly illicit, if not invalid mass is completely different than the Pope praying with Jews in a synagogue. He did not change a Catholic cathedral around to implement Jewish traditions in our Church, he went to their building to pray with them. He was showing love and solidarity, which is what a good leader does to sow seeds for conversions. Also your assessment of post-Vatican II changes is very cynical. Many people took Vatican II and ran in misguided directions. That does not mean that the Church wants dirty hippies doing love rings around the altar. No offense to dirty hippies. :smiley:


#12

[quote=johnnycatholic]To Stanley123:

…he went to their building to pray with them. He was showing love and solidarity, which is what a good leader does** to sow seeds for conversions**. …
[/quote]

Let us know when one single Jew from that Synagogue converts to the RCC, AND Cd. Kasper doesn’t succeed in blocking his entry.

This is no criticism of B16 for doing what he did. He may have had several valid reasons, but interpreting it as “sowing the seeds of conversion” is a stretch considering all the preaching about the Old covenant being salvific.
He might just be looking for ideas on the next liturgical revision.


#13

[quote=johnnycatholic]I must respectfully say that your example of a horrifyingly illicit, if not invalid mass is completely different than the Pope praying with Jews in a synagogue.
[/quote]

Yes it is completely different. But I was not talking about Judaism at all, I was only commenting on the statement that Protestants "are more circumspect at their service than we are at Our Mass."
I think I said that I agree with this statement of a Protestant.


#14

[quote=stanley123]Yes it is completely different. But I was not talking about Judaism at all, I was only commenting on the statement that Protestants "are more circumspect at their service than we are at Our Mass."
I think I said that I agree with this statement of a Protestant.
[/quote]

having attended some ecumenical youth rallies at mega-churches in our area I would have to disagree, the music, light show, glitter and showmanship rivalled anything you would see at your basic rock concert. Circumspect is the very last word I would use to describe these praise and worship events. That is not to mention the pentecostal healing services televised from several large churches which are a cross between the democratic national convention, mardi gras, and The Price is Right.


#15

[quote=puzzleannie]having attended some ecumenical youth rallies at mega-churches in our area I would have to disagree, the music, light show, glitter and showmanship rivalled anything you would see at your basic rock concert. Circumspect is the very last word I would use to describe these praise and worship events. .
[/quote]

Would you be describing here a Catholic youth Mass or a Protestant service (sorry, that was supposed to be a joke).
No, there are of course, many “liberal” Protestant services, that would not be circumspect. I agree with you on this.
Protestants vary from extreme liberal to extreme conservative. I guess that the Protestant who had said “that they are more circumspect at their service than we are at Our Mass,” was referrring to a more conservative form of Protestant worship. So, as you have pointed out my error above, with your kind indulgence, I will rephrase my original statement to: I would agree with this Protestant that the more conservative Protestant service could be much more circumspect than some of the Catholic Masses that we see today.


#16

[quote=TNT]Let us know when one single Jew from that Synagogue converts to the RCC, AND Cd. Kasper doesn’t succeed in blocking his entry.

This is no criticism of B16 for doing what he did. He may have had several valid reasons, but interpreting it as “sowing the seeds of conversion” is a stretch considering all the preaching about the Old covenant being salvific.
He might just be looking for ideas on the next liturgical revision.
[/quote]

TNT,
I have a true story for you. I knew a man who was a very good jew. He was asked to babysit a relative’s 2nd grade daughter while the parents went on a trip. Part of his task was to help this child prepare for First Eucharist. This jewish lawyer agreed to do this even though he was jewish and didn’t share the same faith beliefs as the child. When he was reading the study material and helping the little girl learn what she needed to know, something touched his heart. He fell in love with the Eucharist. In fact he loved it so much that he gave up his religion and his job as a lawyer and became a Catholic priest. He was assigned to my parish for a short while and his homilies were the most interesting I have ever heard. His outlook on everything is based on his Jewish upbringing and the old traditions he was taught. He is perhaps the best homilist I have ever heard.

I think it is possible for Pope Benedict XVI to have made enough of an impression on these people we consider our brothers and sisters that they would convert as my friend was converted. Even more than that, I believe that our Jewish brothers and sisters are family, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with attending a temple for Sabbath and praying with them. We do believe in the same Father, God. Our beloved JPII also prayed with our Jewish brethern if you recall, some criticized this as well.


#17

[quote=BlestOne]TNT,
I have a true story for you. I knew a man who was a very good jew. He was asked to babysit a relative’s 2nd grade daughter while the parents went on a trip. Part of his task was to help this child prepare for First Eucharist. This jewish lawyer agreed to do this even though he was jewish and didn’t share the same faith beliefs as the child. When he was reading the study material and helping the little girl learn what she needed to know, something touched his heart. He fell in love with the Eucharist. In fact he loved it so much that he gave up his religion and his job as a lawyer and became a Catholic priest. He was assigned to my parish for a short while and his homilies were the most interesting I have ever heard. His outlook on everything is based on his Jewish upbringing and the old traditions he was taught. He is perhaps the best homilist I have ever heard.

I think it is possible for Pope Benedict XVI to have made enough of an impression on these people we consider our brothers and sisters that they would convert as my friend was converted. Even more than that, I believe that our Jewish brothers and sisters are family, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with attending a temple for Sabbath and praying with them. We do believe in the same Father, God. Our beloved JPII also prayed with our Jewish brethern if you recall, some criticized this as well.
[/quote]

As I stated clearly: "this is not a criticism of B16…"
I appreciate your powerful testimony, BUT, clearly missing is the teaching about the Eucharist or any other doctrine of the Catholic Faith, such as the Divinity of Christ, etc. in the B16 or JPII visit. Complete silence on the Catholic Faith. Only the reinforcing of the tragedy of the Nazi holocaust.
Now if he gave them a catechism similar to the one in your testimony, well, that would be something!
Since the Old covenant was “never revoked” (there were about 5 “old covenants” but the vatican will NEVER tell you which one was not revoked), then the Jews live under a valid salvific “old covenant”.So, no catechism will ever be given. That’s all.
ps.
I do appreciate your kind intelligent discourse.


#18

These replies are interesting, however, what do you say when someone asks, “How then do explain that the teachings beforee VII stated that we are not to attend services at non- Roman Catholic Chruches.” Now this has changed. The next question a fallen away or non-Catholic will ask is then, perhaps if I wait long enough more things will change and will not mind converting to Catholicism. Or worse yet, “You mean to tell me the Church only figured out where it stands in these thing in the 1960’s? Prior to that none of our Popes were smart enough to figure this out till VII.”


#19

Uh, Jesus and Joseph, as observant, orthodox Jews, would

have put on the phylactries each morning, and their

prayer shawls, before praying:

Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One.

Mary would have prepared the Sabbath meal, each

week, for many years…for Jesus and Joseph and herself.

Apparently, Joseph died before Jesus began His

ministry. So, he died as an orthodox Jew?

It was during the Passover ritual, that Jesus instituted

the Eucharist.

I dunno. I suspect Jesus smiled when the Holy Father

went to the synagogue. Perhaps, for Him, it was

that wonderful feeling you get, when you go…home.

reen12


#20

[quote=cathmonarchmom]…what do you say when someone asks, “How then do explain that the teachings beforee VII stated that we are not to attend services at non- Roman Catholic Chruches.” Now this has changed. The next question a fallen away or non-Catholic will ask is then, perhaps if I wait long enough more things will change and will not mind converting to Catholicism. ."
[/quote]

I guess the standard answer would be that the command not to attemd nonCatholic services was a disciplinary one which is subject to change? As far as a nonCatholic waiting long enough to become Catholic and not needing to convert, I think already this is true in the case of Eastern Orthodox, as there was something called the Balamad agreement according to which Catholics are not suposed to proselytise E.O.? As far as Protestants are concerned, I read somewhere that the present Pope gave Holy Communion at the funeral of the previous Pope to more than one Protestant, and supposedly he knew them. Now if you give Holy Communion to someone, would that indicate that he might be already, at least to some extent, in communion with the RCC?


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