Defending our Faith Help needed


#1

I need your help, I posted yesterday’s readings in another forum it’s a mixture of Catholics and Protestants. I knew that yesterday’s readings might cause a little trouble because it was from Wisdom. When I looked it up the explanation said it was a reading that kind of prophesied the coming of Christ and mentioned Matthew 27 so I listed that verse also. In order to help with questions, I posted a couple links to know why Wisdom would not be in their bible.
catholic.com/library/Old_Testament_Canon.asp
fisheaters.com/septuagint.html
encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761564105/Deuterocanonical_Books.html
forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=110382
Wisdom 2:1,12-22
1 they who said among themselves, thinking not aright: "Brief and troublous is our lifetime; neither is there any remedy for man’s dying, nor is anyone known to have come back from the nether world.
12 Let us beset the just one, because he is obnoxious to us; he sets himself against our doings, Reproaches us for transgressions of the law and charges us with violations of our training.
13 He professes to have knowledge of God and styles himself a child of the LORD.
14 To us he is the censure of our thoughts; merely to see him is a hardship for us,
15 Because his life is not like other men’s, and different are his ways.
16 He judges us debased; he holds aloof from our paths as from things impure. He calls blest the destiny of the just and boasts that God is his Father.
17 Let us see whether his words be true; let us find out what will happen to him.
18 For if the just one be the son of God, he will defend him and deliver him from the hand of his foes.
19 With revilement and torture let us put him to the test that we may have proof of his gentleness and try his patience.
20 Let us condemn him to a shameful death; for according to his own words, God will take care of him."
21 These were their thoughts, but they erred; for their wickedness blinded them,
22 And they knew not the hidden counsels of God; neither did they count on a recompense of holiness nor discern the innocent souls’ reward.
Matthew 27:41-44
41 Likewise the chief priests with the scribes and elders mocked him and said,
42 "He saved others; he cannot save himself. So he is the king of Israel! Let him come down from the cross now, and we will believe in him.
43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now if he wants him. For he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’"
44 The revolutionaries who were crucified with him also kept abusing him in the same way.

**
So this is where I need help I got this reply, and I know it can be refuted with your help. Please help me fight this woman. If I can use your words please let me know. I need scriptures and good christain fighting words**

*"Hmmm … this caught me by surprise. I guess I have always asscociated being a born-again christian as believing that the Holy Bible is the only true inspired Word of God and that we are saved only through the death and resurrection of Jesus and that no man is better or more qualified to give remission of sins and praying to any other person is considered idolatrous. My research of the Catholic Bible brings up completely different information than what was presented here. I urge everyone to search this out and not just search this information from one angle.

My understanding is that there are descrepancies with the added books and the actual Holy scriptures, such as praying for the dead and the fact that none of these scriptures are ever quoted by anyone in the New Testament. Some may argue that there are a few books of the Bible that aren’t either (such as Ezra, Nehemiah and a few others) but they were already accepted by scholars as inspired scripture. My understanding is also that the Jews never did accept these as scritpures, and the authors themselves never lay claim to any inspiration. I know that many people call themselves “scholars”, I have encountered this when studying the Mormon bible also. But there is a standard that must qualify for inspired scriptures and, in my book, the qualifications just aren’t there. Also, a part of revelation and understanding scriptures comes by way of the Holy Spirit and I know that when I ask the Holy Spirit about this, my spirit doesn’t bare any witness with anything other than the Holy Scripture. When I was reading the words from this other book - it just felt real strange to me. Sorry, Ladies! But my Lord comes first and He didn’t necessarily mince words when He was on this earth, nor does He in His Word to us. I must take leave as I take this very seriously and Jesus said, “But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgement. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” Matthew 12:36-37.
So if you agree with me but do not want to “offend” anyone - be careful about how far you go in agreement or acceptance of this. And remember, Jesus offended the Pharisees and Saducees on more than one occasion. And He also spoke very harshly to his disciples when needed. Remember what He said to Peter? “Get behind me Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” And that was because Peter didn’t want him to go be beaten and killed. But the promise of fulfilled prophecy was at stake and eternal life for all of us, whom Jesus loved dearly. And worrying about someones feelings at this point wasn’t an issue for Christ. He saw the bigger picture. He didn’t operate on emotion but obedience. "*


#2

You already have most of the battle won because you quoted Wisdom 2:12-20 which is UNDENIABLE prophecy for Jesus. You should be able to use anyone’s words on these forums, they are public.

"Hmmm … this caught me by surprise. I guess I have always asscociated being a born-again christian as believing that the Holy Bible is the only true inspired Word of God and that we are saved only through the death and resurrection of Jesus and that no man is better or more qualified to give remission of sins and praying to any other person is considered idolatrous. My research of the Catholic Bible brings up completely different information than what was presented here. I urge everyone to search this out and not just search this information from one angle.

This is as standard Protestant “introduction”, toss out multiple accusations and hope the Catholic is put off balance and uneasy. Dont worry, there is nothing of substance in this “introduction”.
Catholics FULLY believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God and we FULLY believe Christ’s death, resurrection and life is necessary for salvation.

My understanding is that there are descrepancies with the added books and the actual Holy scriptures, such as praying for the dead and the fact that none of these scriptures are ever quoted by anyone in the New Testament. Some may argue that there are a few books of the Bible that aren’t either (such as Ezra, Nehemiah and a few others) but they were already accepted by scholars as inspired scripture.

False argument. If Ezra, Esther, Nehemiah arent quoted in the NT then that is NOT a requirement to be Scripture and she cant attack Wisdom on those grounds.

My understanding is also that the Jews never did accept these as scritpures, and the authors themselves never lay claim to any inspiration.

Wisdom and such were written BY Jews, and they were in the Jewish GREEK translations of the Old Testament Bible, the Septuagint. The Septuagint is the equivalent in importance and popularity to the Protestant King James Version.

I know that many people call themselves “scholars”, I have encountered this when studying the Mormon bible also. But there is a standard that must qualify for inspired scriptures and, in my book, the qualifications just aren’t there.

What is her “standard”?..and WHY does her “standard” matter? The only reason why she “knows” what books belong is because they appeared in her Bible.

  • Also, a part of revelation and understanding scriptures comes by way of the Holy Spirit and I know that when I ask the Holy Spirit about this, my spirit doesn’t bare any witness with anything other than the Holy Scripture. *

The Mormons believe the Holy Spirit gives them a warm feeling telling them the Book of Mormon is true.

When I was reading the words from this other book - it just felt real strange to me. Sorry, Ladies! But my Lord comes first and He didn’t necessarily mince words when He was on this earth, nor does He in His Word to us.

What “feels strange” about Wisdom 2:12-20? That is the most explicit prophecy of Jesus in the Bible.

I must take leave as I take this very seriously and Jesus said, “But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgement. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” Matthew 12:36-37.

That is funny because in that passage Jesus said you “will be justified” according to your words at the Final Judgment (future justification), why do Protestants say Justification happens once by faith alone? Who is not listening to Jesus here?

So if you agree with me but do not want to “offend” anyone - be careful about how far you go in agreement or acceptance of this. And remember, Jesus offended the Pharisees and Saducees on more than one occasion. And He also spoke very harshly to his disciples when needed. Remember what He said to Peter? “Get behind me Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” And that was because Peter didn’t want him to go be beaten and killed.

Peter was thinking in earthly terms because Peter wanted to protect Christ from harm, Christ said Peter didnt realize that keeping Him from dying was part of Satan’s plan to stop Jesus’ mission.

But the promise of fulfilled prophecy was at stake and eternal life for all of us, whom Jesus loved dearly. And worrying about someones feelings at this point wasn’t an issue for Christ. He saw the bigger picture. He didn’t operate on emotion but obedience. "

So far she has operated entirely on emotion (the Holy Spirit tells me this book doesnt belong, this book doesnt feel right, etc). She mentions “fulfilled prophecy” right here, yet brushes of Wisdom 2:12-20 as if there was nothing prophetic about it.

Dont worry about your friend here, her claims dont hurt the Catholic position at all.


#3

My understanding is that there are descrepancies with the added books and the actual Holy scriptures

This is drop-dead simple to refute. Ask this person to document that there was a Christian canon of scripture to which these books were later added. That is, ask this person to show you historical evidence of an authoritative canon of scripture which did not include these books. The plain and simple fact is that there was never an authoritative canon which did not include the “added books”.

And if she says they were added at Trent, then tell her that is true only if the 4 Gospels and all the Epistles were also added at Trent.


#4

Replying as if to your attacker:

What has this got to do with the passage from the Book of Wisdom? Is it asking us to worship someone other than Jesus Christ as God?

My research of the Catholic Bible brings up completely different information than what was presented here. I urge everyone to search this out and not just search this information from one angle.

Of what does your research consist? There is very little evidence, historically, of a 39-book Old Testament being used in Christian Bibles prior to the early 1600s. Even the early Protestants (who lived during the 1500s) used the 46-book Old Testament; Martin Luther and John Calvin were both dead by the time the deuterocanonical books were removed from the Protestant Old Testament.

My understanding is that there are descrepancies with the added books and the actual Holy scriptures, such as praying for the dead and the fact that none of these scriptures are ever quoted by anyone in the New Testament.

Jesus and the Apostles certainly taught about life after death, and the Pharisees definitely believed in it; this was part of St. Paul’s defense at the Sanhedrin - he told the Pharisees that he was being accused for his beliefs about life after death, and they rushed immediately to his defense.

The Saducees did not believe in life after death, but they limited their canon of Scripture to the first five books of the Bible; they certainly didn’t use a 39-book Bible. The Pharisees got their ideas about life after death from reading the two Books of Maccabees, the same place that Catholics get it from, in addition to the Gospel accounts about the Resurrection, and from the Book of Revelation.

Some may argue that there are a few books of the Bible that aren’t either (such as Ezra, Nehemiah and a few others) but they were already accepted by scholars as inspired scripture.

Which scholars are you referring to? Scholars living prior to the early 1600s accepted all 46 books as Scripture, so of course they accepted Ezra and Nehemiah, as well. :shrug:

My understanding is also that the Jews never did accept these as scritpures, and the authors themselves never lay claim to any inspiration.

The Jews rejected the deuterocanon of the Old Testament at the same time that they rejected the New Testament. While I admire and respect many Jews, I don’t take their post-Ascension opinions about the canon of Scripture as authoritive. Jesus and the Apostles used the 46-book canon of Scripture, as we see when we look at the translation they’re using when they quote the Old Testament.

I know that many people call themselves “scholars”, I have encountered this when studying the Mormon bible also. But there is a standard that must qualify for inspired scriptures and, in my book, the qualifications just aren’t there. Also, a part of revelation and understanding scriptures comes by way of the Holy Spirit and I know that when I ask the Holy Spirit about this, my spirit doesn’t bare any witness with anything other than the Holy Scripture.

You are right that anybody can call himself a “scholar” but this hardly excuses relying on one’s feelings, instead. Rather, one should look at the credentials of those who claim to be scholars, to see whether they have the proper education to know what they are talking about. (Anything coming from someone who has less than a Ph. D. in the appropriate subjects should be treated as speculation and personal opinion, rather than as reliable facts.)


#5

/thank You so much this is going to help me very very much. Keep coming with it!


#6

This persons says “the authors themselves never lay claim to any inspiration”.

What authors of the bible do lay this claim?


#7

Not sure if you have this link, but it contains where and what deutero’s are quoted in the NT.
cin.org/users/james/files/deutero3.htm


#8

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