Defending our Faith

Everytime I turn around people I know are asking me why is it so important for me to belong to the catholic church. They tell me Jesus loves everybody and doesn’t care what church you belong too. I used to argue with them, beg them to read the History of the catholic church, show them verses in the bible. Particularly, where God asked Peter to build his church. I showed them the line of Popes and when they insisted that the catholics removed the books out of the bible I showed them where it is a lie and that Martin Luther took the books out of the bible. Where God commanded us to receive communion and gave his apostles the authority to forgive our sins and etc., etc. Now I tell them that if (these names are simply examples) John founded and built a church on one corner and called it baptist and Tom founded and built a church on another corner and called it non-denominational, and Jesus Christ founded and built a church on another corner and called it the Catholic Church, without a doubt I am going to join the church that Jesus Christ founded. I tell them that if they can read and read the bible and understand what it say’s then there is nothing else to be but catholic. I finally relised, they don’t want to know the truth, they just want to be right! Then they tell me I am being sarcastic. Can you suggest a short but profound way for me to answer them without long drawn out conversations and debates. Thank you. Brenda

In the early days of Christianity, a Church was established.
If you want to follow Christ, then be obedient to him (Parable of the Two Sons).
To be obedient to Christ, why would I NOT want to be in that Church established by Christ?

Quote to them the scientifically proved miracles of the Catholic Church:
Eucharistic miracle of Laciano Italy where the host turned into actual flesh and blood of Jesus and has remained incorrupt 300 years. Scientists tested it and proved it is blood of a man, of the human heart, of blood type AB, and tested it against another Eucharistic miracle 300 years older than this one, and could prove they were both the blood of the SAME person. Jesus Christ .
Scientists examining the Turin Shroud found LOADS of human blood type AB on it.
Jesus Christ’s blood. All these the blood of the SAME person.
Pollen was found on the shroud dating back to Palestine 2000 years ago. It is Jesus.

Scientists have recently proved, the image on the shroud is made of a substance not of this earth, it could not have been made 2000 years ago without radiation or laser technology, it was not painted. They believe when Jesus was resurrected His body shone so brightly that His image transferred to the Shroud.

Also:
The Tilma of Guadalupe with Our Lady’s image. Also the image is made of a substance not of this earth, but it is the EXACT same substance that the image on the Turin Shroud is made of. A heavenly substance. And scientists enlarged Our Lady’s eyes on the image, and guess what, -a complete photograph was found in her eyes of the bishop and those present when the Tilma was shown to the bishop. Only to be seen under microscope.

There are THOUSANDS of miracles of the Catholic Church. Read about them and if you ever need to share them you can .

Padre Pio’s own doctor was an aetheist, but he converted and wrote a book about Padre Pio and all the evidence that padre Pio had the mystical wounds of Jesus for 50 years unceasingly on his hands, feet, and side.

Pope John Paul II -a woman looking down at his image on a magazine heard him say; ‘Stand up and walk’ (and she was miraculously healed of her incurable disease she had).

At Fatima during the miracle of the sun 144,000 people (need to search the exact number) saw the sun dance, grow larger and smaller, or saw Our Lady with the Child Jesus.

There have been over 500 scientifically proved healing miracles at Medjugorje where Our Lady is still appearing for 30+ years.

Etc…

The Catholic Church has had and still has saints, mystics, miracles, visionaries, and wonders ongoing,
Look at all the miracle working saints that God heals through from Jesus time to the present, and unbroken line, and all the apparitions of Our Lady still being granted to the world from Early Christian times.

How about a deep and earnest, “Thank you!”, and leave it at that, knowing their castigation gives you the grace that comes with the beatitude Christ spoke of on the Sermon on the Mount, in Matthew 5:11: “Blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account."

They are actually doing you a favor!

Fantasy.

  1. Human Figures In Both Eyes

“11. In the eyes of Mary (only about 1/3rd inch in size), miniscule human figures were discovered that no artist could have painted. The same scene is repeated in each eye. Using digital technology, the images in the eyes were enlarged many times, revealing that each eye reflected the figure of the Indian Juan Diego opening his tilma in front of Bishop Zumarraga. Do you know the size of this scene? One fourth of a millimeter (1/100th of an inch).”

Fantastic if it were not dishonest! More to the point:

a. The Tampering Of The Eyes.

During the XVIIth (17th) Guadalupe Congress in 1992 in the City of Mexico, a number of amplified photographs of the face of the Sacred Image were put on sale at the lobby of the ampitheater. It was observed that recent photographs of the right eye contained a black circle surrounding the iris, which was not present in the magnifications of older pictures which were also on sale. In these latter (older) photographs the fabric weave of the Tilma could clearly be observed in said eye, while absent in the more recent ones. An official report of the tamperings through the centuries is contained in the document “Relación de Retoques.”

b. ‘discovery’

In 1929 Alfonso Marcué González, official photographer of the old Basílica for 40 years, was the first to discover the image-within-the image phenomenon in the right eye of the Face while examining black & white photographic negatives he had taken of the portrait. The Abbott Feliciano Cortés Mora at the time asked him not to publish his discovery. This is curious, because the natural instinct would have been to shout the discovery from the rooftops. But the Abbot knew that something had been done to the eyes of the Image, and, following the prevailing attitude of silence and denial, was not going to let the cat out of the bag. He would have had to explain how it got there, that he had authorized the retouching.

In 1951 the same discovery was made by José Carlos Salinas Chávez, but Archbishop Luís Maria Martinez of Mexico City directs him to study the phenomenon, and publish the results.

c. The incredible claim in 1979 by the Peruvian scientist Aste Tonsman phD Cornell, published in his book “El Secreto de sus Ojos.” He is credited with having “discovered” six figures reflected in the corneas of both eyes. But his finding has not been replicated to this day and age of super digitalization of images. The Grupo Macehual in Mexico, among scientists in their own right, say that they have reexamined the digital images performed by Tonsman, and there are actually no human figures to be readily seen without the aid of the deliberate tracings and delineations as Tonsman has done. Upon closer inspection of the raw digital image some of the claimed figures were located in an area which, upon going into normal magnification, corresponded to the eyelid, and not the eye itself.

please look at this: marianmessenger.ph/index.php/message/42

When one starts making outrageous claims such as are discussed in this article, it really does no good for the authentic miracles.

Also, please provide the scientific articles that prove the blood is that of Jesus.

.

Hey Brenda,

Of course, a good Catholic sticks up for the Church like he defends his loved ones or his own body. But, it looks like the the change in method you are considering is absolutely in the right–as in the defense of anything, it’s possible for your efforts to do more harm than good. This came from an article by Trent Horn on Catholic Answers:

[quote=]…we become weird when we don’t think about how our words and actions affect other people. St. Paul said, “Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer every one.” (Colossians 4:6)

Instead of going into a conversation with the attitude “I’m going to win,” go into the conversation with the attitude “I’m going to be winsome,” and the Holy Spirit will do the rest. Proverbs 15:1 reminds us,“ A soft answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.”
[/quote]

(catholic.com/blog/trent-horn/three-ways-to-be-a-better-pro-lifer)

From your post, your discussions seem more like verbal battles where ground is gained and lost like in war. As you say, the opposing sides are only concerned with defense of their own positions, regardless of the actual truth. So, even if it were possible to totally win an argument, your opponent would still be convinced against his/her will.

Thus, as it seems you have already concluded, your goal is not to win these arguments–it accomplishes little, and actually your opponent may become only more stubborn in his/her beliefs. Instead your goal is to influence for the better and in in any small way their beliefs. While you must always firmly defend the Church, as the article above says, being friendly and gracioius towards your coversation fellows and their beliefs can go a long way towards this goal.

To directly answer your actual question… I think you had been right to bring the discussion back to the authority of Christian belief, but there might be a more influential way. Instead of making statements, even profound ones, try asking questions. For example, instead of saying “The Bible came from the Church,” ask them “Why do you believe the Bible is God-inspired?”
Another good one is: “How do you know your interpretation of this&this Scripture is correct?”

Hope this helped. I would also reccommend the book “By What Authority” by Mark Shea; it was a game-changer for me on this subject. :slight_smile:

-Greg

Please do not accuse me of lying. I have read authentic sources on this and would not lie and make up fantasy on a catholic forum.

Proof:
The blood type of the Eucharistic miracle of the Miracle of Laciano Italy is blood type AB. NASA did the tests on the Shroud and proved the blood type AB on the Shroud also.
The Flesh and the Blood have the same blood-type: AB (Blood-type identical to that which Prof. Baima Bollone uncovered in the Holy Shroud under NASA’s scientific examination of the Shroud.

miraclerosarymission.org/lanciano.html

michaeljournal.org/eucharist3.htm

therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html

Originally Posted by flower lady View Post
Can you suggest a short but profound way for me to answer them without long drawn out conversations and debates. Thank you. Brenda

With a gentle smile say that Jesus has given you the gift of a Divine and Catholic Faith. That you have accepted the gift with complete assent. Tell them the gift is for everyone and hope they will accept it.
Linda

I would not accuse you of lying, but I would discourage you from defending your Faith based on any post-Apostolic paranormal situation or artifact.

Catholics (hopefully) do not base their faith on any paranormal situation. Catholics are permitted to believe in (and advocate) certain post-Apostolic miracles (Lourdes, Fatima, etc), but it would be really (REALLY!) wrong if Catholics BASED their Catholic belief in these events. Because no faithful Catholic is required to believe ANY of them. Catholics are free to personally reject even accepted post-Apostolic revelations, though they should generally keep their negative opinions to themselves.

But the Shroud does not even rise to the level of accepted revelation. I can (and I do) say that I reject it as a legitimate artifact.

Good post Greg!:thumbsup:

All catholic sources. Where are the research articles? Where is NASA’s published article?

I also provided a source refuting the claims that comes from a Catholic site.

All you have MAYBE proven (still haven’t seen the actual research) is that the blood is type AB. You stated as FACT that it is Christ’s blood. Please explain to me how, without comparing DNA, that this can be proven as FACT.

I never denied that there may have been a miracle, my issue was that you stated as fact that it was Christ’s blood, and unless you have evidence, I would postulate that this is rather misleading to others who may be reading this.

Yup, I’ve found the Socratic method is the most effective way to deal with some of my militant Protestant in laws. By asking the right questions, they may be led to discover the Truth, which is really what we want the conversation to be about.

Why be Catholic? Because Jesus desires it.

Jesus prayed that the Apostles might have the depth of unity that He shares with the Father. Was He praying for unity among his Apostles only? No! He prayed for all who would hear and believe these Apostles:

"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.” (John 17:20-23)

Jesus is saying that the unity of a single, visible church would be proof that He really was sent into the world by the Father. The unity of the church is supposed to be a witness to this fact. In order for the world to know the truth, it must be able to see a visible, unified church.

Can the world look at the state of Christianity today and see one unified church? Do they say, “Yep, those Christians are certainly unified, that is plain to see. By looking at them, we can believe that Jesus was sent by God”? Not at all! The world cannot see an “invisible” unity of all true believers because what it sees instead is 25,000+ denominations bickering and fighting amongst themselves over doctrinal differences.

Just as Jesus and the Father are perfectly united, so God desires for the Apostles and those who come to believe in Jesus through them to be united. The reason for this unity is clear: to let the world know that you sent me”. Without this unity, the witness of the Christian Church to the world is weakened and as a result, the souls who fail to recognize the truth may be lost. Thus, the world must be able to see the unity of a visible, authoritative Church and hear the truth it proclaims. What are signs of this unity that the world should see?

One of the signs must be doctrinal unity on matters of faith and morals. In the pages of Scripture, we read:

“All the believers were one in heart and mind.” (Acts 4:32)

“There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called—one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.” (Eph 4:4-6)

“I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.” (1 Corinthians 1:10)

No. Divisions. Perfect. Unity.

In the absence of the witness our unity was supposed to give, souls are being lost.

Tell **that **to your non-denominational friends. :sad_yes:

I think that I would do as Randy suggests and talk about the unity that Jesus wants for all of us. If it got difficult I’d probably say that Jesus told us that He would not leaves us orphans, and that He built the Church from which they departed during the 1500s…

Ultimately we are here to love them as God taught us, and to lead by example.

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