This is from a previous thread. A desire for better communication was indicated. Definition of term is the starting point:
posted by exrc # 1115, edited by MariaPhil and Maria,
Let’s define some terms for the sake of clarification. I think if we get a fix on that, we can argue more effectively.
These definitions must however be biblical. In other words derived using only biblical references.OK?
I think if you do this you will find a difference with what you say you believe and what you really believe.
In love Dan!
I edited out the other terms. I feel the discussion is best when sticking to one subject. Born Again is enough for now:)
Let’s start with one that we completely disagree onhttp://forum.catholic.com/images/smilies/wink.gif . This definition is the root of much of the disagreements on this thread.
There are many sources and Scripture verses from the Bible.
Born Again as defined by the Early Church has always referred to Baptism. The key Bible verse is Jn 3:5. There is an excellent explanation which includes Scripture as well as history to show that this is what the early Church taught. I hope you actually choose to read it. It is not long. catholic.com/library/Bor…_in_Baptism.asp
Using Catholic Christian definitions, to be born again is when we are baptized and become adopted children of God. It is a miraculous work of God in which original sin is removed from our soul.
It is not an automatic ticket to heaven. It is also the reason that Catholics believe that we can be part of God’s family and choose to walk away from Him. There must be a commitment as an adult to continue to walk in His Grace.
This definition of born again has been around since the time of the Apostles. Although I realize you disagree with it, it is Biblical and historical. Obviously, you disagree with the interpretation of Scripture from the Bible, but then the question is why should I put your interpretation above the Catholic one, one that acurrately reflects the apostles teachings and can be proved from writings of the time, as well as Scripture? One that Lutherans follow? One that many of the “Reformed” Protestant religions follow?
Honestly, for me, the only way you could change my mind about Baptism being regenerative instead of just a public declaration reflecting an inward desire to follow Christ, would be to show me people who at the time of the apostles interpreted Scripture in the same way you do. I know you can show me Scripture, so can I. What I would need from you is proof that the early Church taught it and followed the teaching of adult only baptism as the true teaching of the apostles. That baptism was only a public declaration, not a miracle from God.
I do not expect you to suddenly say “The Catholics are right!” But I do hope you can understand some of our differences a little better.
Baptism is where we are born again into the family of God. It is a miracle not just a public declaration.
Your sister in Christ,
Maybe we should start a new thread on this?
posted by exrc #1134
I appreciate your answer Maria, but I was looking for** what** it is, and perhaps what it procures, not how it happens.
p.s. A thread might be a good idea!
Thanks! Your friend Dan!