This is the argument that was made to me, that forcing a woman to be pregnant if she doesn’t want to be is akin to torture. I’m at a loss for words. Any help?
To start with, the child is a unique human being. How can anyone speak of human rights out of one side of the mouth while advocating the murder of a human being outside of the other.
This position is morally bankrupt to an absurd degree. That’s why it is hard for a reasonable person to answer.
Not even close. I would bet most people would rather be pregnant than be waterboarded, and even some wouldn’t consider that torture.
Pregnancy is not a disease, it’s natural reproduction.
Ask him / her how it amounts to torture.
List some extreme forms of torture and compare them to the denial of abortion. Sometimes these people just need to be “trolled” back.
Yet to use your terminology, it is also bankrupt of any consistency and it likewise makes it hard to reason with the person who speaks murder out of one side of the mouth while not advocating the mother and dr and any and all other accomplices involved to be placed on trial for murder. I am not speaking about you. I have no idea of your views. But so many in the pro life movement, I find unwilling to do so.
Dog whistle! Dog whistle! Down, boy, that’s a good doggy! :D:D:D
I support trial for the murder of an innocent child…and I will not be backing down from this no matter many liberals and go-through-the-motion pro-lifers gasp. :eek:
Virtue signaling, anyone?
I would absolutely support trying for murder anyone involved in abortion, including accessories - people and organisations that provide funds for it.
This is a logically coherent position that does not involve attacking those thinking otherwise as “go through the motion pro-lifers”. For the record, I agree with you, though the death penalty for mothers under duress is certainly not an option that I’d keep on the table. :o
Well duress is a legal defence with certain elements that would have to be proved on a case to case basis. It could not be assumed to apply universally.
Anyway, it’s always good to acknowledge the woman’s feeling. Being pregnant can be awful, especially those who were raped (trauma) or in serious health problems that might end her life.
But in cases, remind that saying things like that trivialises actual torture. And also remind her what torture actually is. Just because a pregnancy is difficult does not mean it is okay to get rid of a life.
You would realise almost any issue on abortion is always the issue on “is the fetus considered a life? Is the life just as worthy as the mother?”. Pro choice advocates tend to use emotional arguments that fail to address this
Not universally, of course. The much-misunderstood principles of casuistry would have to apply in such cases.
I dont care if it is called murder in the law or something else but I do not advocate severe punishments for the mother especially if it is a teen single mother. I do advocate them for the doctor, however. What has this to do with being antiabortion? The two are not the same question to my mind.
There are two things: one is the protection of the unborn child and two is the appropriate means of doing so. I believe stopping the abortion “profession” is far more pressing than punishing the women who are tempted to procure it by fear of a difficult or uncertain future. To me, it’s like punishing a drug dealer more severely than a drug user.
I know they are not exactly the same as drugs but I consider a woman fearing that “her life is over” and anticipating all sorts of difficulties is under more mental pressure than the person she hires to perform the abortion whose only motivation for the crime is money.
I support the most severe penalties for the abortionists but different penalties for the mother depending on her age, affluence and motivation for procuring the abortion. A financially able, married adult should not be punished the same as some scared teenager trying to hide her pregnancy from her parents.
Interesting discussion but it doesn’t address my question. How do I diffuse the histrionic comparison of unwanted pregnancy to torture?
I don’t think you can reason with unreasonable people.
Well, for one, pregnancy is mostly chosen by sexual engagement with full knowledge that a human being may be the end result.
Secondly, even in the case of rape, the “torture” mental or otherwise, is not the child’s fault. It is also not the fault of the state (unless one considers failure to provide adequate security from rape) that protects all life including the life of the baby.
Third, why are you conceding the premises? Ask THEM to show YOU that pregnancy is torture as they claim. WHAT exactly makes it torture? Its difficulty? Are all pregnant women being tortured? If it is not the difficulty but the “forced” nature (according to them) you can point them to any number of circumstances that limit people’s freedom because of the lives of others. A man with a contagious disease might consider confinement in quarantine “torture” but it is necessary to save other lives. Our freedoms are limited by higher values like life in a civilized society. So what does this person define as the essence of torture? Make them tell you rather than accepting their arbitrary comparisons.
Thanks, that’s a very good answer
See my post #2 and others. Point to the humanity of the child. And go from there.
“forcing a woman to be pregnant” ??? Do you mean rape?