Did Christ exist?


#1

Hi everyone. I searched for this topic and found nothing, although I’m sure it has been asked before. I was in a discussion with someone who claimed that Jesus never existed, using a book by John Remsburg as a reference. I did some research and it seems that Remsburg wasn’t much of a biblical authority. Still, I’m not sure how to respond to this person’s claim.


#2

For an informative (and funny imho) article on the so-called Jesus Myth read: www.bede.org.uk/jesusmyth.htm

The link is not working for me at the moment, but basically the Jesus myther’s case is built on special pleading, arguments from silence, and LOTS of wishful thinking.

Scott


#3

[quote=Scott Waddell]For an informative (and funny imho) article on the so-called Jesus Myth read: www.bede.org.uk/jesusmyth.htm

The link is not working for me at the moment, but basically the Jesus myther’s case is built on special pleading, arguments from silence, and LOTS of wishful thinking.

Scott
[/quote]

Thank you. I’m going to read this too!


#4

I wish the link worked. It had a great section on how you could use the Jesus Myther’s line of reasoning to disprove the existence of Hannibal (and in turn could basically disprove any ancient historical figure you wanted to.)

Scott


#5

[quote=Scott Waddell]For an informative (and funny imho) article on the so-called Jesus Myth read: www.bede.org.uk/jesusmyth.htm

The link is not working for me at the moment, but basically the Jesus myther’s case is built on special pleading, arguments from silence, and LOTS of wishful thinking.

Scott
[/quote]

The link is working again now. Thanks for the info, it’s a great read. :thumbsup:


#6

The best answer to this claptrap about whether Jesus even existed, is to ask the most difficult question to which anyone who has ever read the Gospels could answer “Yes.”

Do the Four Evangelists sound like a bunch of liars?


#7

[quote=Gilbert Keith]The best answer to this claptrap about whether Jesus even existed, is to ask the most difficult question to which anyone who has ever read the Gospels could answer “Yes.”

Do the Four Evangelists sound like a bunch of liars?
[/quote]

I have a vague recollection of a book which is set in the 4th Millenium in which after a great catastrophe historians are trying to piece together an account of the events of the periodn 1500 to 2000. They are speculating whether a fellow named Napeolon actually existed or was part of the myth of the Sun God.(the Enlightenment).


#8

[quote=Binary]I was in a discussion with someone who claimed that Jesus never existed, using a book by John Remsburg as a reference. I did some research and it seems that Remsburg wasn’t much of a biblical authority.
[/quote]

How does your friend know that John Remsburg exists?

How do we know George Washington existed? I never met him. Just because a bunch of people tell me, and the history books write about him, and they give tours of places where they claim he lived, does that prove that George Washington existed?

How do we know anything for that matter? We know things based on both personal experience and by stories told by others. We have to trust someone in order to believe any history or anything we haven’t personally witnessed.

One wonderful thing about Jesus is that while we take some information on pure faith, once we have faith our formerly blind eyes can see. We can know He existed and still exists. Pray your friend recieves the gift of faith so your friend will know this too.


#9

People has proven that Jesus has existed even without the Bible. Whoever said this doesn’t know any history. Just tell him that that author is full of it.


#10

Flavius Josephus talks about Jesus in History of the Jews. The Talmud discusses Jesus as a real (heretical) figure rather than brushing him aside as a myth. Jesus is so heavily attested to historically that I feel it’s patently absurd to claim he wasn’t real. One can argue that he wasn’t the Messiah, but ALL accounts from history point to a radical Jewish rabbi named Joshua being nailed to a cross circa AD 30.

If the Jews, ancient and modern, who have EVERY REASON to say that he didn’t exist (wouldn’t that make the whole debate so much easier for them?), say he existed. Say he isn’t the Messiah, fine. We’ll discuss. Say he didn’t exist, and I stare blankly.


#11

[quote=alterserver_07]People has proven that Jesus has existed even without the Bible. Whoever said this doesn’t know any history. Just tell him that that author is full of it.
[/quote]

If anybody knows the source(s) of this evidence I’d be interested in attaining it.

Thanks


#12

I personally do not believe that Jesus existed. I invite you all to read the following: ebonmusings.org/atheism/camel.html

The supposed historical references to Jesus by Josephus, Suetonius, Pliny the Younger, Tacitus, the Talmud, and others, are dealt with in the second part of this essay.

You decide…

clarkal


#13

One of the best arguments that He did exist, IMHO, is the fact that so many of the very first Christians went to their deaths rather than deny Him. If it had all been made up, the people who made it up would not have died for it.

Or perhaps he’s also arguing that none of the apostles existed either?


#14

[quote=VociMike]One of the best arguments that He did exist, IMHO, is the fact that so many of the very first Christians went to their deaths rather than deny Him. If it had all been made up, the people who made it up would not have died for it.

Or perhaps he’s also arguing that none of the apostles existed either?
[/quote]

Outside of the bible and tradition, what historical evidence is there that the apostles “went to their deaths rather than deny him”?

clarkal


#15

[quote=clarkal]I personally do not believe that Jesus existed. I invite you all to read the following: ebonmusings.org/atheism/camel.html

The supposed historical references to Jesus by Josephus, Suetonius, Pliny the Younger, Tacitus, the Talmud, and others, are dealt with in the second part of this essay.

You decide…

clarkal
[/quote]

“in the end, though, what ultimately matters is the evidence…” says this article.

The evidence of Jesus is in the lives of the Saints. Not all of us who claim to follow Him provide evidence that He exists, but they did. Examine their lives and you’ll find Jesus.

I’m sorry that you lost your faith, clarkal. But the existance of God is independenty of what you or I believe. Just because someone decides too believe or not to believe, doesn’t change reality. He either exists or He doesn’t. I hope that you get to know some saintly people who provide the evidence of Him for you by the way they live. If you can’t find that, no amount of archeological or other evidence for the apostle’ martyrdom or the historical Jesus will convince you.

In the end evidence matters, and at the end of my life I hope Jesus can find enough evidence that He existed in my life.


#16

[quote=clarkal]Outside of the bible and tradition, what historical evidence is there that the apostles “went to their deaths rather than deny him”?
[/quote]

what counts as enough evidence to justify historical beliefs for you?


#17

[quote=clarkal]Outside of the bible and tradition, what historical evidence is there that the apostles “went to their deaths rather than deny him”?
[/quote]

It’s not just the apostles, it’s early Christians in general. Are you questioning the very fact of Roman persecution of early Christians?


#18

[quote=gardenswithkids]I’m sorry that you lost your faith, clarkal.
[/quote]

Don’t be sorry; I’m not.

What about ‘saintly’ Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, Confucists, etc.? Should I take their lives of devotion to their religion and its morality as a sign of it being true?

clarkal


#19

[quote=john doran]what counts as enough evidence to justify historical beliefs for you?
[/quote]

In this case, I suppose that we cannot know for certain. However, if there were multiple unbiased sources (documents) or artifacts that can be shown not to have been tampered with, I would be inclined to believe that such and such apostle existed.

clarkal


#20

[quote=VociMike]It’s not just the apostles, it’s early Christians in general. Are you questioning the very fact of Roman persecution of early Christians?
[/quote]

No. I know that the early Christians were persecuted.

But how do you know that the apostles, the ones who supposedly “made it all up”, died willingly rather than deny what they knew was false? Do you have any sources confirming their marytrdom outside of scripture and religious tradition?

Curious,

clarkal


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