Did God the Son appear on the Earth Before the Incarnation?


#1

Like with Abraham and his three visitors?
Or with Jacob when he “struggled with God?”
Or with Joshua as he was overlooking Jericho?


#2

Hi, James!

…there’s an interesting development in Genesis:

[FONT=“Garamond”][size=]18 Melchizedek king of Salem brought bread and wine; he was a priest of God Most High. 19 He pronounced this blessing: 20 ‘Blessed be Abram by God Most High, creator of heaven and earth, and blessed be God Most High for handing over your enemies to you’. And Abram gave him a title of everything.

(Genesis 14:18-20)
…right after a major battle Melchizedek, king of Salem, who happens to be Yahweh God’s priest appears to Abraham (the priesthood is not yet established [Aaron and his descendants and the tribe of Levi] and Israel [Salem = city of peace/Jerusalem] does not yet exist nor has it established a kingdom) and a type for the Lord’s Supper takes place… as he Blesses Abram (Abraham) he receives the tithing (which will be given to the priests once the priesthood is established.

Now consider Jesus’ Word:

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to think that he would see my Day; he saw it and was glad.’

(St. John 8:56)
Though it is never mentioned in Scriptures, Jesus alludes to His Coming being awaited by Abraham; He establishes that Abraham was given to understand the Revelation of Jesus Incarnation and that he was glad (died a happy man).

So while it is quite veiled and not generally made known… Jesus was witnessed by Abraham, in my opinion, in the episode of Melchizedek, priest and king of Salem, the City of the Great King!

Maran atha!

Angel

[/size][/FONT]


#3

Though it is never mentioned in Scriptures, Jesus alludes to His Coming being awaited by Abraham; He establishes that Abraham was given to understand the Revelation of Jesus Incarnation and that he was glad (died a happy man).

So while it is quite veiled and not generally made known… Jesus was witnessed by Abraham, in my opinion, in the episode of Melchizedek, priest and king of Salem, the City of the Great King!

No, this is a popular theory held by some Evangelical Christians but the Church rejects it. Melchizedek was not the pre-incarnate Jesus appearing in some earthy humanoid form. The fact is, we don’t know a whole lot about Melchizedek but we do know that he wasn’t Jesus. They are two different people. Jesus has become our high priest forever in the order of Melchizedek, but he is not Melchizedek.


#4

Could you point us to some reference material for further study?


#5

I have heard some theories that the Burning Bush was God the Son, and that other times God directly spoke to humans, it was The Word of God, who is God the Son.


#6

Going only from memory:
Scott Hahn mentions Melchizedek in at least one of his talks. Pretty sure he says that the Rabinnic tradition regards Melchizedek as Shem, Noah’s first-born son (ancient, of course). “Shem” means “name”, and there’s a lot more, flowing from that.
His offering of bread and wine certainly prefigured Our Lord, the priesthood.
King of Salem: later Jerusalem. City of Peace.


#7

I was always told that ‘‘God walking in the garden’’ in Genesis 3:8 was probably Jesus, but I don’t think we can know for sure. It was reasoned that the only person in the Godhead who had a bodily form was The Son.


#8

I say this because the text in Genesis shifts from “one of the men” to “the LORD.”

By Jacob’s own testimony, the angel who wrestled with him was God Himself.

And the Man who appeared to Joshua did not refuse his reverence.


#9

From my studies, the Angel represents God. And reverence is due to one’s state.


#10

If Jesus did appear to some OT prophets, etc., he would not have been “pre-incarnate” but the Incarnated Christ appearing in time from out of eternity. We have such a limited understanding of time and eternity that we have a hard time understanding such ideas. We think in terms of time travel–with some device taking us to another timeline. But God is eternal and lives outside of time, which is merely a part of his creation. It is perfectly possible that the Incarnate, Risen Christ could have visited some people from OT times. The real question is, as I see it: Did he do that and if he did why did/would he? :slight_smile:


#11

That’s interesting… Never thought of it that way.

I always assumed that if God the Son spoke in the Old Testament, it would have been solely His Divinity.

Never thought about time travel…:hmmm:


#12

Well, not time travel as we think of it, of course. For Christ it’s just a matter of stepping into the timeline like walking through a door from one room into another. He doesn’t see time as a solid object the way we do but more as an avenue to visit humanity, as I see it. His Incarnation in time–now that’s the real miracle of time and space. Makes my poor head hurt trying to wrap my mind around it. :smiley:

It works the other way too. The Eucharist we offer at every Mass is an eternal offering offered in time. We re-present the one sacrifice of Christ to God in eternity. So, Jesus appearing at any point in history would not be impossible. In that case, the only questions being did he and/or would he do that? :slight_smile:


#13

Oh I get what you are saying 100% :slight_smile:

Calling it time travel is just simpler for me, but I was totally envisioning what you said here.

The reason I never thought about it like that before is because I’ve heard/read people say it was God the Son in His Divinity only, not Jesus, that was featured in the Old Testimate, as Jesus (God the Son in BOTH in His Divinity and Humanity) wasn’t born yet.

But I’m more inclined to think that God the Son, in His Divinity only, was the one present at Creation when the Angels fell. Because if the Resurrected Jesus (fully human, fully Divine) was there, why would the Angels revolt. They would have trusted then.

So my theory is that God the Son, in His Divinity only, was there at Creation. But I’m open to a “time traveling” Resurected Jesus, in His Divinity & Humanity) appearing to humans.

Wow! Theology is fun. :slight_smile:


#14

Hi!

It has never been explained to me how the Church Teaches that…

Did God establish a kingdom of Israel prior to Israel becoming the nation/people of Israel?

Is Melchizedek immortal?

What is Melchizedek’s origin?

Where did Melchizedek come from and return to?

Why did Abram paid him the tithing that would come to be received by Levi (priestly clan)?

How many of Israel’s kings were both kings and priest?

How many of Israel’s priests were both priests and kings?

How could Melchizedek be the priest of the Most High and the king of Salem (Jerusalem) when the twelve tribes did not even exist?

Did Melchizedek travel back in time once Jerusalem was established?

Where is it recorded, other than Genesis, that Melchizedek was king in Jerusalem (Salem)?

…just for consideration: where in the Old Testament does it state that Christ was the Rock that provided water to the Hebrew people during their trek in the desert? Why is St. Paul so adamant that Jesus was that Rock?

Maran atha!

Angel


#15

Hi!

…yes… there’s that rabbinic tradition that still awaits for the Messiah; then there’s the one that rejects the resurrection and angels; then there are the ones that reject the New Testament as the Word of God (Sacred Scriptures)…

…so how authoritative should we hold that tradition?

Maran atha!

Angel


#16

Hi!

…the problem with that premise is that it would place the Incarnate Word at a pre-Incarnated time… rather we should not limit God… in Scriptures Yahweh explains that the earth is the footstool where He places His feet… that’s a huge body, ain’t it? …yet, in another passage He Commands Moses to create the Ark of the Covenant so that when He, that huge Being, Come to speak with Moses, He could make His Presence Known from within the Cherubs on the Ark:

[FONT=“Garamond”][size=]22 There I shall come to meet you; there, from above the throne of mercy, from between the two cherubs that are on the ark of the Testimony, I shall give you all my commands for the sons of Israel.

(Exodus 25:10-22)
…and consider too that Jesus Promised that, if we (Believers) Love Him, the other Paraclete (the Holy Spirit), the Father and He, Himself, the Son, will make their above in us… how big is the biggest recorded human being?

Maran atha!

Angel

[/size][/FONT]


#17

Hi, James!

…yes… God Reveals Himself as He deems it; in Scriptures we find only reflections of Who/What God is… so we cannot contain God through our limited understandings… we can only accept that He can Reveal Himself in various contexts and through various means (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, an excellent example).

Maran atha!

Angel


#18

I would say Jesus made his presence known before the Incarnation. Whether it be the burning bush, or as St. Paul stated the rock the Israelites drank from or the wrestling with Jacob it was prior to the historical point of time Jesus became flesh. But Jesus is eternal.


#19

Hi!

…yeah, but we must distinguish between “an” angel and “the” Angel of Yahweh God.

…in Apocalypse we have Jesus’ angel (“an” angel) being worshiped by John–he quickly corrects him: ‘no, we must worship only God!’

…I can recall, at least one instance, in the Old Testament “the Angel of Yahweh God” being addressed as Lord and speaking not as a messenger but as Yahweh God Himself.

Maran atha!

Angel


#20

Hi, Della!

…ever heard the expression: “I have my reasons?”

God has His Reasons–I suspect that they are always related to His Salvific Plan…

…now, how precisely did Jesus and the Holy Spirit interact in the Old Testament… one day we may know the exact thing… for now, consider the Transfiguration… Jesus was Transfigured… but He did not appeared alone, did He? He was accompany by two men; one (Moses) who had physically died a few thousand years prior to the Incarnation of the Word and the other who (Elijah) had been taken Away by God several hundred years from the same event… yet, Jesus’ chosen Disciples not only witnessed Jesus speaking with those two men, but they recognized exactly who they were!

It was Revealed to them, in the Holy Spirit!

St. Peter, pistol that he was, could not contained his joy and offered to build three tents (adoration)… he Knew that he was in the Presence of God’s Mystery!

Maran atha!

Angel


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.