Did Jesus exist? Italian court to decide


#1

Did Jesus exist? Italian court to decide

ROME (Reuters) - Forget the U.S. debate over intelligent design versus
evolution.

An Italian court is tackling Jesus – and whether the Roman Catholic
Church may be breaking the law by teaching that he existed 2,000 years
ago.

The case pits against each other two men in their 70s, who are from
the same central Italian town and even went to the same seminary
school in their teenage years.

The defendant, Enrico Righi, went on to become a priest writing for
the parish newspaper. The plaintiff, Luigi Cascioli, became a vocal
atheist who, after years of legal wrangling, is set to get his day in
court later this month.

"I started this lawsuit because I wanted to deal the final blow
against the Church, the bearer of obscurantism and regression,"
Cascioli told Reuters.

Cascioli says Righi, and by extension the whole Church, broke two
Italian laws. The first is “Abuso di Credulita Popolare” (Abuse of
Popular Belief) meant to protect people against being swindled or
conned. The second crime, he says, is “Sostituzione di Persona,” or
impersonation.

“The Church constructed Christ upon the personality of John of
Gamala,” Cascioli claimed, referring to the 1st century Jew who fought
against the Roman army.

A court in Viterbo will hear from Righi, who has yet to be indicted,
at a January 27 preliminary hearing meant to determine whether the
case has enough merit to go forward.

“In my book, The Fable of Christ, I present proof Jesus did not exist
as a historic figure. He must now refute this by showing proof of
Christ’s existence,” Cascioli said.

Speaking to Reuters, Righi, 76, sounded frustrated by the case and
baffled as to why Cascioli – who, like him, came from the town of
Bagnoregio – singled him out in his crusade against the Church.

"We’re both from Bagnoregio, both of us. We were in seminary together.
Then he took a different path and we didn’t see each other anymore,"
Righi said.

“Since I’m a priest, and I write in the parish newspaper, he is now
suing me because I ‘trick’ the people.”

Righi claims there is plenty of evidence to support the existence of
Jesus, including historical texts.

He also claims that justice is on his side. The judge presiding over
the hearing has tried, repeatedly, to dismiss the case – prompting
appeals from Cascioli.

“Cascioli says he didn’t exist. And I said that he did,” he said. “The
judge will to decide if Christ exists or not.”

Even Cascioli admits that the odds are against him, especially in
Roman Catholic Italy.

“It would take a miracle to win,” he joked.

Source:
my.netscape.com/corewidgets/news/story.psp?cat=P600&id= 06010412350002482036


#2

[quote=StMarkEofE]Did Jesus exist? Italian court to decide

ROME (Reuters) - Forget the U.S. debate over intelligent design versus
evolution.

An Italian court is tackling Jesus – and whether the Roman Catholic
Church may be breaking the law by teaching that he existed 2,000 years
ago.

The case pits against each other two men in their 70s, who are from
the same central Italian town and even went to the same seminary
school in their teenage years.

The defendant, Enrico Righi, went on to become a priest writing for
the parish newspaper. The plaintiff, Luigi Cascioli, became a vocal
atheist who, after years of legal wrangling, is set to get his day in
court later this month.

"I started this lawsuit because I wanted to deal the final blow
against the Church, the bearer of obscurantism and regression,"
Cascioli told Reuters.

Cascioli says Righi, and by extension the whole Church, broke two
Italian laws. The first is “Abuso di Credulita Popolare” (Abuse of
Popular Belief) meant to protect people against being swindled or
conned. The second crime, he says, is “Sostituzione di Persona,” or
impersonation.

“The Church constructed Christ upon the personality of John of
Gamala,” Cascioli claimed, referring to the 1st century Jew who fought
against the Roman army.

A court in Viterbo will hear from Righi, who has yet to be indicted,
at a January 27 preliminary hearing meant to determine whether the
case has enough merit to go forward.

“In my book, The Fable of Christ, I present proof Jesus did not exist
as a historic figure. He must now refute this by showing proof of
Christ’s existence,” Cascioli said.

Speaking to Reuters, Righi, 76, sounded frustrated by the case and
baffled as to why Cascioli – who, like him, came from the town of
Bagnoregio – singled him out in his crusade against the Church.

"We’re both from Bagnoregio, both of us. We were in seminary together.
Then he took a different path and we didn’t see each other anymore,"
Righi said.

“Since I’m a priest, and I write in the parish newspaper, he is now
suing me because I ‘trick’ the people.”

Righi claims there is plenty of evidence to support the existence of
Jesus, including historical texts.

He also claims that justice is on his side. The judge presiding over
the hearing has tried, repeatedly, to dismiss the case – prompting
appeals from Cascioli.

“Cascioli says he didn’t exist. And I said that he did,” he said. “The
judge will to decide if Christ exists or not.”

Even Cascioli admits that the odds are against him, especially in
Roman Catholic Italy.

“It would take a miracle to win,” he joked.

Source:
my.netscape.com/corewidgets/news/story.psp?cat=P600&id= 06010412350002482036
[/quote]

While this is a very interesting topic, I hardly see how it can be construed as Eastern.


#3

[quote=twiztedseraph]While this is a very interesting topic, I hardly see how it can be construed as Eastern.
[/quote]

Your are correct. I should have posted it on another forum maybe “faith”. However, it is a good point of interest in that the existence of Jesus is even being disputed in this time and age.

Maybe the moderator can transfer these proceedings to the appropriate forum???


#4

The door for Anti-Christ slowly opens.


#5

[quote=StMarkEofE]Your are correct. I should have posted it on another forum maybe “faith”. However, it is a good point of interest in that the existence of Jesus is even being disputed in this time and age.

Maybe the moderator can transfer these proceedings to the appropriate forum???
[/quote]

Meh, who cares? Honestly, we have the best group of posters here.

Lets see this as the de-christianization of Europe. Which is something that unites East and West :frowning:


#6

[quote=Peter Schneider]The door for Anti-Christ slowly opens.
[/quote]

I see your point but lets be optimistic, this could also be a good thing.


#7

The Roman Rite Church is in Vatican City, which IS a nation within itself. To say that the battle is against Italy is just that. If this guy were to win, the Vatican will be ‘cut off’ from the outside world, an island monastery of sorts.

East AND West need to pray that all of human knowledge and proof goes against the athiest.
Yet, could this be the ‘Great Aposticy’ that would be foretold in the NT? :confused:


#8

[quote=Edwin1961]The Roman Rite Church is in Vatican City, which IS a nation within itself. To say that the battle is against Italy is just that. If this guy were to win, the Vatican will be ‘cut off’ from the outside world, an island monastery of sorts.

East AND West need to pray that all of human knowledge and proof goes against the athiest.
Yet, could this be the ‘Great Aposticy’ that would be foretold in the NT? :confused:
[/quote]

I am sure the consensus of opinion in Italy at large is that Jesus existed and is the saviour of us all. But that may not mean anything to magistrates or politicians with atheistic adgendas. It is bad enough that the Vatican is challenged by the increase of muslims in Rome itself but to have their own Italian countrymen question the the validity of religion itself is beyond the pale.


#9

[quote=twiztedseraph]While this is a very interesting topic, I hardly see how it can be construed as Eastern.
[/quote]

I thought Jesus was supposed to be Julius Caesar :slight_smile:

carotta.de/subseite/texte/esumma.html

More fun here - links at end: home-3.tiscali.nl/~meester7/engjesus.html ##


#10

[quote=StMarkEofE]It is bad enough that the Vatican is challenged by the increase of muslims in Rome itself but to have their own Italian countrymen question the the validity of religion itself is beyond the pale.
[/quote]

The muslims also believe that Jesus exhisted. To say that he didnt would mean that the Quran is telling a lie, and since they think that the book is infallable, they could never support the stance that Jesus, the Messiah (he is actually called Messiah in the Quran, and Mary is also Called the Virgin Mother) never exhisted would be heresy for them. They would not and could not do it.


#11

If there is enough historical evidence for the Jesus Seminar to support His existence, there should be enough evidence for even a European court.


#12

[quote=StMarkEofE]…“In my book, The Fable of Christ, I present proof …,” Cascioli said. …
[/quote]

Drumming up publicity to sell a book :rolleyes:

Why didn’t Dan Brown think of this :wink:

It will be interesting to see what the magistrate says to this crank


#13

What a strange theory about Jesus. How can Jesus have been modeled on someone who fought the Romans in 70ad when parts of the New Testament were written before 70ad?

There are lots of other reasons why the theory is whacky (the name Jesus is called by Josephus and others, the person described in the scriptures, the fact that John was hero of the Jews and the person the scriptures describe wasn’t seen by the Jews as such, etc etc)

The theory that the entire person of Christ was fabricated by counterfeiters in the 2nd century is even more bizarre than some of the other theories I’ve heard - like the one where Jesus spent his entire life in Qumran and everything in the gospels is just a metaphor for that. Even madder than the Jesus Seminar stuff I had to learn at college that says that if any saying of Jesus agrees with what the church taught, it was probably made up by the church.

It is a sad thing that these mad theories get so much attention and get believed by so many people.

Other mad theories - Erich von Daniken “Chariots of the Gods”, Baigent & Leigh “Holy Blood & The Holy Grail”, Graham Hancock “pretty much anything he’s ever written”.

I can just imagine a group of 2nd century people sitting round and deciding to invent Jesus and base him on John of Gamala. You’ve got to remember that for this scenario to work there can’t have been a church in existence - no Jesus, so no church. So, ignoring that these people would have to invent the first popes, write the New Testament, invent the writings of Clement, Ignatius and probably the Didache and Justin (and other early texts), ignoring the fact that the church was widespread by that time, ignoring history - what would their discussions have been like?

“Lets invent someone who started a religion.”

“Let’s base him on a heroic soldier who fought Romans.”

“How can we do that?”

“Maybe the best way would be to have him carry no weapon, go round healing people, and not fight back against the Romans”

“Hey, that’s a good idea, the similarities are amazing me already. What else can we do?”

“Well, let’s work on the idea that John was a total hero to the Jewish people, defending the temple to the end.”

“Hmm, any ideas about that.”

“I’ve got a few. Let’s have our own hero rejected by pretty much everyone - especially by the Jewish leaders and those in charge of the temple and the religion.”

“Anything else?”

“Let’s have the guy do all sort of things that the Jewish leaders say are against the law. Then let’s have him say that there won’t be any need for the temple anymore.”

“Great ideas. Your invented leader is a perfect match for John of Gamala. This will be a sure fire hit. Bound to take off, and we can cream off the tithes.”

And so it could go on.

The G A Henty novel about John of Gamala (which people seem to recommed generally) probably contains as much, or more, historical truth as Luigi Cascioli’s.


closed #14

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