Did Jesus have the ability to say "No" to the Father?


#21

Yes.

Recall the events of the Temptation in the Desert.

He could have sinned, but He did not sin.


#22

Agreed. He had the ability to do so but made the decision not to do so.


#23

My point is that He had the choice.


#24

Good question for a new topic.


#25

Can you see how that opens a can of worms with concepts like the Immaculate Conception and Original Sin?


#26

Can you see how His ability to possibly commit a sin then reflects on the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception? If Jesus had the ability then obviously so did Mary. Did we inherit from our first human parents some stain of their sin or their ability to commit sin… aka a conscience. (They supposedly ate from the “Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil”)


#27

Immaculate conception is the dogma the Mary was conceived without original sin. The fact that God willed to keep Mary pure from original sin does not deprive Mary of her free will.


#28

Not sure you are connecting the right dots between eating of the tree and the conscience.

In any case, the interplay between human free will, divine attributes, original sin, are a deep mystery that will not provide satisfactory proofs, in my opinion.


#29

No. It does not.

We inherited “some stain of sin” i.e. “Original Sin.”

Your premise that Original Sin is actually conscience is the flaw.

You are assuming that Adam did not know that it was wrong to eat from the tree until he actually did it.

The problem here is that he must have known that it was wrong. First, God told him not to do it, therefore Adam knew not to do it. Secondly, if Adam did not know it was wrong, then that means it would have been wrong for God to punish him; in other words, God is un-just because he punished Adam for doing something that was not Adam’s fault. That doesn’t make any sense.


#30

Jesus can’t sin because He’s God and God can’t sin. Does that make Him less or not really human when He incarnated? No. Jesus was just like us in all things but sin.

Jesus (God incarnate)explains His mission

Jn 5:19
the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

Jn 6:
38* For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me;

Jn 8:29
The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him."

Jn 12:49
For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.

Jn 12:50
whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say."

Jn 14:10
The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

Jn 14:31
I do exactly what my Father has commanded me.

If we want to be Jesus to others, We are to follow Him.


#31

I believe but am not super knowledgeable on this. Jesus is like us in all things but sin doesn’t mean that Jesus didn’t have the ability to sin, but that Jesus didn’t sin even when faced with agony and death. Jesus reveals the Father to us and you have to realize the Son of Man couldn’t say no to God, nor could Mary, because they did the will of the Father by choice, not because it was forced upon them. God doesn’t force His will on anyone not even His own Son. I agree if we want to be like Jesus we have to follow HIm and follow the will of the Father… To me Mary is separate issue anyway because Mary is not God but Jesus is and Jesus cant contradict His very self.I guess I’m going around and around with this… Sorry…:wink:


#32

Yes, we did. Because of Adam and Eve’s sin, we do not inherit the original holiness and justification granted to men and, lacking that, we experience concupiscence.

Adam was created rational and with a conscience. There are different approaches to the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, but we do not consider Adam lacking in knowledge that disobeying God was wrong. Adam had knowledge that this was so. One approach is to understand it is that Adam lacked any personal experience with sin and evil and the disunion that puts between him and God, though rationally he understood it was wrong.

Not repenting was consequential, but again, it’s about what we didn’t inherit that is the basis of original sin. You’re making up your own theology and interpretation of scripture.

No one can live a sinless life apart from the graces of God. It’s not something a human nature can accomplish on its own.

We lack the inheritance of original holiness and justice and so we are also left with concupiscence.


#33

And it all goes wrong in your model of what original sin is.


#34

Fr I hear what you’re saying… but I think and this is my opinion…bless you…
Jesus is the way… He shows us the way… and the way is obedience to God… How can we know what is expected of us if Jesus disobeyed God? More and more I think about it the more it make sense why it ‘appears’ Jesus had a choice to ‘us’ but really He couldn’t because Jesus is God and can’t contradict Himself. This is Jesus teaching us to obey…:slight_smile:


#35

What you have is basically an error I had before I returned to the faith: that the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil represents an awakening from animal-like awareness to human-like awareness, where animals can’t be held responsible because they lack rationality. That is not correct. Adam and Eve were rational animals before the fall with gifts above and beyond what we have, which makes their disobedience all the more tragic.


#36

I never heard of that Wesrock. The tree choice was a choice that humans made, but that’s separate from Jesus IMO, because Jesus, the Son of Man is in direct union with the Son of God, and came to reveal God to us. Jesus is Gods mercy on us which is a little more than a choice.


#37

Good question.

It would definitely be out of His nature to say no. I don’t know if I’d say He was incapable of saying no so much as that would be unable to be done.


#38

I found this article from CAF in 2014 and it kind of swayed my thinking.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/could-jesus-have-sinned-absolutely-not


#39

I feel that article is in agreement with my first post but that it glosses over/skips the nuances I made.


#40

Err I read that Wesrock and I feel it’s not really answering the question directly. Would you say Jesus had the ability to say No to the Father?


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