Did Jesus teach Salvation by belief in his death


#1

I saw the question posed on another forum, and I thought the replies rather indirect.

The premise (correctly) was that the death and resurrection of Christ are "bedrock" of christianity. The Muslim writer wanted to discuss if Jesus himself taught this doctrine. Like most Muslims, he wanted scripture (a Gospel, not an epistle, I'm sure) where Jesus specifically verbalized it. (See all the inter-faith polemics of the divinity of Christ.) I could think of several of the Lord's remarks scattered through the Gospels but probably not the neat tidy package he was demanding. But what would others offer as evidence? What would you provide the person asking this question?


#2

Mt. 20:28: "the Son of man is not come to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a redemption for many."

That establishes that He taught it as bedrock (it is the purpose of the Incarnation).

John 5:24 "he who heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath life everlasting"

This establishes that we must believe whatever He says in order to be saved.


#3

Matt 20:28 would definitely be at the top of the list. Along with John 5:24

I would also include John 3. John's account of the resurrection in Chap. 20 mentions the necessity of the belief. I think Mark 8 and 9, and Matthew 26 also have to be in the conversation.

Matthew 25 includes at length some qualifiers for salvation that does not include belief in his death and resurrection. John 6, too.


#4

[quote="LtTony, post:1, topic:320769"]
I saw the question posed on another forum, and I thought the replies rather indirect.

The premise (correctly) was that the death and resurrection of Christ are "bedrock" of christianity. The Muslim writer wanted to discuss if Jesus himself taught this doctrine. Like most Muslims, he wanted scripture (a Gospel, not an epistle, I'm sure) where Jesus specifically verbalized it. (See all the inter-faith polemics of the divinity of Christ.) I could think of several of the Lord's remarks scattered through the Gospels but probably not the neat tidy package he was demanding. But what would others offer as evidence? What would you provide the person asking this question?

[/quote]

I wouldn't say Jesus taught salvation by belief in His death (all kinds of people believe He died). What we believe is that He made possible our salvation through His death.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for** if I do not go away, the Counselor will not come to you**; but if I go, I will send him to you.

It is the presence in our souls of the Holy Spirit, the fountain of living water (sanctifying grace), infusing the life of grace to sanctify us, that saves us.

John 7:37-39 On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and proclaimed, "If any one thirst, let him come to me and drink. He who believes in me, as the scripture has said, 'Out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water'.'" Now this he said about the Spirit, which those who believed in him were to receive; for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

And it was on the Cross where Our Lord's heart was pierced and blood and water flowed out.


#5

I wouldn't say Jesus taught salvation by belief in His death (all kinds of people believe He died).

Not muslims. And that is the polemic were talking about. As stated earlier, belief in the death and resurrection of Christ is a fundamental part of Christianity. The sacrifice of His life leads us to the forgiveness of sins.

I don't want to go over the details of our individual views. I'd like to stick with the basic concepts: that it is a core belief and if it is explicitly expressed by Christ Himself. I say yes to both.

What we believe is that He made possible our salvation through His death.

Agree. Where would you say that Christ states this specifically?


#6

I should have included in my list Mark 10(v45), and the four Gospel accounts of the establishment of the new covenant (Matt 26, Mark 14, Luke 22 and John 13).


#7

Three times Jesus tells the apostles He must be killed and then rise on the third day:
Matthew 16:21 From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised.

Matthew 17:22-23 As they were gathering in Galilee, Jesus said to them, "The Son of man is to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill him, and he will be raised on the third day." ...

Matthew 20:18-19 "Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man will be delivered to the chief priests and scribes, and they will condemn him to death, and deliver him to the Gentiles to be mocked and scourged and crucified, and he will be raised on the third day."

At the time Jesus is arrested - when His above words to the apostles actually start to occur, He says first to Peter (vs 54) and then to the crowd who came to arrest Him (vs 56):
Matthew 26:53-54 Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then should the scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?"

Matthew 26:56 But all this has taken place, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled."

So Jesus specifically says that what is occurring is what has been prophecied in the (OT) Scriptures. He is saying they apply to Him in regards to what He is about to suffer. So, one has to look for OT Scriptures that prophecy what Jesus is about to undergo because Jesus said those Scriptures spoke of Him.

Thus for example, the chapters in Isaiah about the suffering Servant are part of what Jesus "specifically taught" about Himself; about His death.
For example:
Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that made us whole, and with his stripes we are healed.
Isaiah 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to bruise hHim; He has put Him to grief; when he makes Himself an offering for sin, He shall see His offspring, He shall prolog His days;
Isaiah 53:11 ....the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous; and He shall bear their iniquities.
Isaiah 53:12 ....because He poured out His soul to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.


#8

[quote="LtTony, post:5, topic:320769"]

Nita

What we believe is that He made possible our salvation through His death. Agree. Where would you say that Christ states this specifically?

[/quote]

As I noted in the earlier post, He says it in John 16:7* (Nevertheless I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not** go away*, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.) These words were spoken to the apostles at the Last Supper just before they were to leave for the Garden of Gethsemane. The "going away" refers to Jesus being killed. Now, Jesus taught that we need to receive the Holy Spirit before we can be saved (John 3:5-6) and at the Last Supper He is saying He must die before the Holy Spirit can come to us.

In John 3:5-6 Jesus says that we must be born of water and the Spirit in order to "enter the kingdom of heaven" (be saved). In John 16:7 He says that unless He goes (dies) the Holy Spirit cannot come to us.

In John 10:10-11 Jesus says:
I came that they may have life*, and have it abundantly. I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life ***for the sheep.

(Please note that Jesus is not talking about physical, mortal life that He wants to give us (the sheep). Humans already had that before Jesus, the shepherd, laid down His life.


#9

Great stuff, Nita.

Do you think Christ Himself says that we must believe in His death and resurrection to attain salvation? Does he state that necessary belief somewhere?


#10

[quote="LtTony, post:9, topic:320769"]
Great stuff, Nita.

Do you think Christ Himself says that we must believe in His death and resurrection to attain salvation? Does he state that necessary belief somewhere?

[/quote]

I guess I don't know what you mean by believing in His death and resurrection -- believing what about it?

If you're asking if there's a sentence somewhere in the Gospels where Jesus says specifically "You must believe in my death and resurrection", then no, that particular sentence is not in the gospels.


#11

I'm thinking since you know the type of statement from Jesus that you're looking for, it would be best if you just took the time to read through the 4 Gospels. It wouldn't take that much time.


#12

Since Jesus did not leave any of his own writings behind, we cannot be certain what he taught. We have the written description only of his followers.

However, this is not an important distinction. Jesus's LIFE (as a myth and as a reality -- and when I say 'myth' I mean in the original sense of the word: a HIGH TRUTH) -- IS HIS TEACHING.

Anyone understanding the history of religion (this has deep roots far back beyond Judaism and Christianity, roots in Nature, in Nature's cycles and in Astronomy and the measurement of the seasons) will not be concerned with Jesus' failure to write his doctrine. In truth, the highest religious training and initiation has always been SPOKEN TRUTHS. The Word becomes the Written Word as a second differentiation.

Those who KNOW understand that Jesus gave his life so that we would not need to. This is an esoteric TRUTH. If one does not understand it, then one is not ready for it.

Jesus came down from Heaven to act as a bridge between Heaven and Earth. His crucifixion came because he brought Truths from Heaven that the rulers of the Earth felt threatened by. Jesus is still the psychopompus, the Soul through whom the High (the Proud) are brought down and the Low (the Meek) are raised up.

Remember what happened to Rome after they killed Jesus. The Roman Empire collapsed and was transformed into the Dark Age, a monastic reflective period of study and a search for God. We are at that same juncture today. The American Empire is the Roman Empire of today. And the next Dark Age is coming.

The Dark Age is a picture of the High and Mighty (the Empire) being brought down and the Meek inheriting the Earth.


#13

Here is a passage (see bolded sentence) that came to mind this morning - the Walk to Emmaus as recorded in Luke's Gospel.
Luke 24:14 and talking with each other about all these things that had happened. 24:15 While they were talking and discussing together, Jesus himself drew near and went with them. 24:16 But their eyes were kept from recognizing him. 24:17 And he said to them, "What is this conversation which you are holding with each other as you walk?" And they stood still, looking sad. 24:18 Then one of them, named Cle'opas, answered him, "Are you the only visitor to Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?" 24:19 And he said to them, "What things?" And they said to him, "Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people, 24:20 and how our chief priests and rulers delivered him up to be condemned to death, and crucified him. 24:21 But we had hoped that he was the one to redeem Israel. Yes, and besides all this, it is now the third day since this happened. 24:22 Moreover, some women of our company amazed us. They were at the tomb early in the morning 24:23 and did not find his body; and they came back saying that they had even seen a vision of angels, who said that he was alive. 24:24 Some of those who were with us went to the tomb, and found it just as the women had said; but him they did not see." 24:25 And he said to them, "O foolish men, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! ** 24:26 Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?" **24:27 And beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them


#14

[quote="Nita, post:10, topic:320769"]
I guess I don't know what you mean by believing in His death and resurrection -- believing what about it?

[/quote]

That it is a means to an end -- our salvation. As St Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15 1-18, if it didn't happen, then everything we believe is in vain.

en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28American_Standard%29/1_Corinthians#15

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resurrection_of_Jesus#Historicity_and_origin_of_the_narrative

[quote="Nita, post:10, topic:320769"]

If you're asking if there's a sentence somewhere in the Gospels where Jesus says specifically "You must believe in my death and resurrection", then no, that particular sentence is not in the gospels.

[/quote]

I don't think there is a neat little package statement either, but the concept is scattered throughout the Gospels. Jesus clearly states His mission is to save us, that He will be killed and rise from the dead, and that we must believe in Him to be saved.

I'm thinking since you know the type of statement from Jesus that you're looking for, it would be best if you just took the time to read through the 4 Gospels. It wouldn't take that much time.

Yes, I've done that, as I have indicated above. But there are people here like yourself who have a lot of insight and knowledge, and I wanted to get their take on the question.

Those who KNOW understand that Jesus gave his life so that we would not need to. This is an esoteric TRUTH. If one does not understand it, then one is not ready for it.

Not sure what you mean by the MJC.


#15

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