Did JP2 really apologize for the "Sins of the Church"?


#1

In one of those TV documentaries about pope John Paul II after he died, he is shown at the Wailing Wall (I think that’s what it’s called) placing a prayer in a nook and asking God to forgive “the sins of the Church.” Did he really say that? I didn’t think that the Church could sin. :confused: What exactly was he apologizing for?


#2

The actions of previous members within the Church.


#3

Yes he did. While he was at it he apologized on behalf of God for all of these oppressive rules. /sarcasm


#4

[quote=JSmitty2005]In one of those TV documentaries about pope John Paul II after he died, he is shown at the Wailing Wall (I think that’s what it’s called) placing a prayer in a nook and asking God to forgive “the sins of the Church.” Did he really say that? I didn’t think that the Church could sin. :confused: What exactly was he apologizing for?
[/quote]

The Church is made up of sinners. How could it not sin?


#5

[quote=marysson]The Church is made up of sinners. How could it not sin?
[/quote]

Because the CHURCH is the Body of Christ, so the more accurate statement is as Hegesippus posted,“The actions of previous members within the Church.” :thumbsup:
(Just nit-picking for clarity.)

Koton :slight_smile:


#6

[quote=marysson]The Church is made up of sinners. How could it not sin?
[/quote]

The Church is One Mystical Person of Christ and Body in a supernatural union of Grace by the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit in three states: of blessedness in Heaven, of purification after death, of visible communion on earth. This means that Christ dwells in all and only in all that comes from Him (what He joins to Himself), but not in any of what contradicts Himself. This is why there can not be a facile identification of the Church with its visible members with all the actions of all or any of its members. All that comes from the sin of its visible members, of course, is not the Church, because it departs from union with Christ. The opposite distortion is the too often heard “we are the Church” materially understood as one would of any other sociological grouping of humanity, which is a radical secularization of a Divine Mystery. This is why one can say that every member of the Visible Church sins, but the Church does not sin. Thus in the Holy Father’s “apology” we see clearly that he does not identify the Church herself with the sins of which her sons and daughters, however lofty their position, have committed.

Thus the Church is holy, not sinful as its members are (taken individually or materially, for there are many dead members of the Visible Church who are only materially, i.e., externally, joined to the Church and to Christ, who nevertheless have the opportunity of being revived, especially by the prayers and sacrifices of the alive members.)


#7

[quote=FCEGM]The Church is One Mystical Person of Christ and Body in a supernatural union of Grace by the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit in three states: of blessedness in Heaven, of purification after death, of visible communion on earth. This means that Christ dwells in all and only in all that comes from Him (what He joins to Himself), but not in any of what contradicts Himself. This is why there can not be a facile identification of the Church with its visible members with all the actions of all or any of its members. All that comes from the sin of its visible members, of course, is not the Church, because it departs from union with Christ. The opposite distortion is the too often heard “we are the Church” materially understood as one would of any other sociological grouping of humanity, which is a radical secularization of a Divine Mystery. This is why one can say that every member of the Visible Church sins, but the Church does not sin. Thus in the Holy Father’s “apology” we see clearly that he does not identify the Church herself with the sins of which her sons and daughters, however lofty their position, have committed.

Thus the Church is holy, not sinful as its members are (taken individually or materially, for there are many dead members of the Visible Church who are only materially, i.e., externally, joined to the Church and to Christ, who nevertheless have the opportunity of being revived, especially by the prayers and sacrifices of the alive members.)
[/quote]

Thanks, that’s exactly what I was asking for. So, the Church itself cannot “sin.” Then, did JP2 really apologize for “the sins of the Church” or just the sins of its members that may have done it in the name of the Church despite the fact that they didn’t have the Church’s blessing (ie. - the excommunicated crusaders that sacked Constantinople and others)? Do you know where I can find a transcript of these so-called apologies?


#8

Every time I have looked up the original quotes, JPII apologized for the sins of the** members** of the Church. He never apologized for the sins of the Church.

The newspapers deliberately changed in the wording in every case I have looked up.

Notice how those opposed to the Church don’t seem to care very much about the truth


#9

“As Pope John Paul II began to prepare the Roman Catholic Church for the Jubilee 2000 celebrations, he proclaimed the first Sunday in Lent, March 12, to be the “Day of Pardon.” On that day the whole Church was called to a collective act of repentance for the historical sins of the Church’s sons and daughters…Seven representatives of the Church…step forward to offer prayers for sins committed in the service of the truth, such as during the Crusades and the Inquisition…After each cardinal and bishop offers a prayerful petition, John Paul replies with his own.”

"Rabbi David Rosen, the director of the American Jewish Committee’s Interreligious Affairs Department, said, “No pope has devoted himself as much to advancing positive relations between the Christian world and the Jewish people as this pope. He may indeed be described as a hero of reconciliation.”

“In his brief reign as pope, it appears as if Pope Benedict XVI will faithfully continue the righteous works of Pope John Paul II. In his first major interfaith meeting, Pope Benedict XVI assured a delegation of Jewish leaders of the Roman Catholic Church’s commitment to fighting anti-Semitism and to closer ties between Jews and Catholics.”

Above quotes are taken from the book, Jerusalem Countdown, by John Hagee, Front Line publications, 2006 And Hagee took his quotes from Harold Fickett, “John Paull II: Prophet of Freedom,” GodSpy, Faith at the Edge, accessed at godspy.com/faith/John-Paul-the-Great-The-Prophet-of-Freedom-by-Harold-Fickett.cfm on September 23, 2005.


#10

[quote=JSmitty2005]Thanks, that’s exactly what I was asking for. So, the Church itself cannot “sin.” Then, did JP2 really apologize for “the sins of the Church” or just the sins of its members that may have done it in the name of the Church despite the fact that they didn’t have the Church’s blessing (ie. - the excommunicated crusaders that sacked Constantinople and others)? Do you know where I can find a transcript of these so-called apologies?
[/quote]

JS - here’s the text of the liturgy for the “Day of Pardon” - you’ll note that nowhere does it speak of the CHURCH as having sinned, only of Christians who have sinned:

vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/documents/ns_lit_doc_20000312_prayer-day-pardon_en.html


#11

[quote=FCEGM]JS - here’s the text of the liturgy for the “Day of Pardon” - you’ll note that nowhere does it speak of the CHURCH as having sinned, only of Christians who have sinned:

vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/documents/ns_lit_doc_20000312_prayer-day-pardon_en.html
[/quote]

Thanks! :thumbsup:


#12

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