Did Mary (The Mother of our Savior) Need a Savior?


#1

As a Catholic kid … I heard the prayer/song at least a thousand times… Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.

If, as the words indicate, Mary was without sin, the logical conclusion is that she was not in need of a Savior.

Input?


#2

Of cause she needed saving, She said so herself. Lk 1: 47


#3

yes , mary was saved by the grace of her son , but not like everyone of us , but in a special way.

even protestant scholars like Baptist Greek scholar A. T. Robertson said "Highly favoured" (kecharitomene). Perfect passive
participle of charitoo and means endowed with grace
(charis), enriched with grace as in Ephesians. 1:6, . . . The
Vulgate gratiae plena "is right, if it means 'full of grace
which thou hast received' ''


#4

[quote="1voice, post:1, topic:280238"]
As a Catholic kid ... I heard the prayer/song at least a thousand times... Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.

If, as the words indicate, Mary was without sin, the logical conclusion is that she was not in need of a Savior.

Input?

[/quote]

She needed Jesus.
Do not ask me why....


#5

[quote="1voice, post:1, topic:280238"]
As a Catholic kid ... I heard the prayer/song at least a thousand times... Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.

If, as the words indicate, Mary was without sin, the logical conclusion is that she was not in need of a Savior.

Input?

[/quote]

Yes, Mary needed and had a Savior. It's like this... if a child playing near a pool falls in but is then rescued by her father, she has been saved. However, if her father places a wall around the pool so that the child cannot fall in, she has also been saved. God is outside of time and He saved Mary before she fell into the pool.


#6

Before Jesus could take flesh for our salvation, He needed a mother. But, not just any mother. So, Jesus conceived of Mary in the Divine intellect before He created her, through her parents, in the flesh (John 1:1-3). Yet, He could not assume a sinful flesh, since God cannot coexist with sin - especially in a hypostatic union. So, Jesus created His mother, by a singular grace, and in light of her specific mission, to be also without sin. Mary was saved before she knew it - at her conception. We know that sin passes through the blood, and we know that Jesus is sinless.

Mary, in turn, conceived of Jesus in her womb to give her flesh to Him. Jesus had to have a blood connection to the line of David in order to fulfill prophecy as the Messiah. So, He obtained that connection through the flesh of the mother that He created for Himself. Look at sin and redemption this way: The devil tempted two sinless human natures to fall from grace, so God used two sinless human natures to restore man to grace.


#7

[quote="arabic_catholic, post:3, topic:280238"]
yes , mary was saved by the grace of her son , but not like everyone of us , but in a special way.

even protestant scholars like Baptist Greek scholar A. T. Robertson said "Highly favoured" (kecharitomene). Perfect passive
participle of charitoo and means endowed with grace
(charis), enriched with grace as in Ephesians. 1:6, . . . The
Vulgate gratiae plena "is right, if it means 'full of grace
which thou hast received' ''

[/quote]

Exactly.


#8

[quote="po18guy, post:6, topic:280238"]
Before Jesus could take flesh for our salvation, He needed a mother. But, not just any mother. So, Jesus conceived of Mary in the Divine intellect before He created her, through her parents, in the flesh (John 1:1-3). Yet, He could not assume a sinful flesh, since God cannot coexist with sin - especially in a hypostatic union. So, Jesus created His mother, by a singular grace, and in light of her specific mission, to be also without sin. Mary was saved before she knew it - at her conception. We know that sin passes through the blood, and we know that Jesus is sinless.

Mary, in turn, conceived of Jesus in her womb to give her flesh to Him. Jesus had to have a blood connection to the line of David in order to fulfill prophecy as the Messiah. So, He obtained that connection through the flesh of the mother that He created for Himself. Look at sin and redemption this way: The devil tempted two sinless human natures to fall from grace, so God used two sinless human natures to restore man to grace.

[/quote]

Amen


#9

[quote="1voice, post:1, topic:280238"]
As a Catholic kid ... I heard the prayer/song at least a thousand times... Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.

If, as the words indicate, Mary was without sin, the logical conclusion is that she was not in need of a Savior.

Input?

[/quote]

Did you not hear what the early church fathers said about this in your Catholic childhood?

Well you must have heard what Martin Luther said?

“It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very
infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a pure soul
infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin" (Sermon: "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God,” 1527 Luther).:shrug:

You've been reading way to many fast google protestant sights which teach a new history from 1850 foward. There is only One Word of God. The Truth was the Truth is the Truth, its doesn't change. And you can take this to the bank. It surely didn't change in 1850.

Mary was more in need of the Savior than anyone. :thumbsup:

Peace


#10

1800s America. Adventism. Mormonism. The Jehovah's Witnesses. Numerous other "Made in USA" sects. There was a spirit motivating all of this, but it was not the Holy Spirit.


#11

[quote="1voice, post:1, topic:280238"]
As a Catholic kid ... I heard the prayer/song at least a thousand times... Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.

If, as the words indicate, Mary was without sin, the logical conclusion is that she was not in need of a Savior.

Input?

[/quote]

Mary was without sin, but the logical conclusion (and the one that the Church teaches) is that Mary still needed a Savior just in a different way than the rest of us. Mary, unlike Christ, wasn't sinless by her own merit, but rather was preserved from sin by the grace of God. In a way, Mary was saved from falling into the pit of sin, but she still needed God to keep her from falling into it, and so she still needed a Savior. That is why she, as the Gospel indicates, rejoiced in the birth of her Savior. She was celebrating the birth of the Savior she knew had saved her from falling into the pit of sin.


#12

[quote="Tietjen, post:5, topic:280238"]
Yes, Mary needed and had a Savior. It's like this... if a child playing near a pool falls in but is then rescued by her father, she has been saved. However, if her father places a wall around the pool so that the child cannot fall in, she has also been saved. God is outside of time and He saved Mary before she fell into the pool.

[/quote]

Beautiful! The Holy Spirit speaks volumes through this post and has inspired me to pray :

Hail Mary, full of grace
The Lord is with thee
Blessed art thou among women
And blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus

Holy Mary, Mother of God
Pray for us sinners
Now and at the our of our death

Amen :)


#13

[quote="1voice, post:1, topic:280238"]
As a Catholic kid ... I heard the prayer/song at least a thousand times... Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.

If, as the words indicate, Mary was without sin, the logical conclusion is that she was not in need of a Savior.

Input?

[/quote]

Howdy. I believe it has been brought up before .Don't totally recal the CC answer. Something to do with Jesus being baptized by John and why ? for He had nothing to be washed of. The other question might be was that she was full of grace and if she were without sin , her favor would be "merited', and not really grace. I suppose the rebuttal then is that her sinlessness was in itself "grace". It is also ironic that Christ also indwells us, in fact this flesh is His temple. All this by faith ,exactly as in the old testament. Hence Mary could have been perfect ,by faith ,(in the promise). No need for "special "dispensational cleansing for the Godhead to "indwell' her.


#14

[quote="david_ruiz, post:13, topic:280238"]
Howdy. I believe it has been brought up before .Don't totally recal the CC answer. Something to do with Jesus being baptized by John and why ? for He had nothing to be washed of. The other question might be was that she was full of grace and if she were without sin , her favor would be "merited', and not really grace. I suppose the rebuttal then is that her sinlessness was in itself "grace". It is also ironic that Christ also indwells us, in fact this flesh is His temple. All this by faith ,exactly as in the old testament. Hence Mary could have been perfect ,by faith ,(in the promise). No need for "special "dispensational cleansing for the Godhead to "indwell' her.

[/quote]

Yet, sin is passed through the blood. There is no scriptural explanation for how Jesus was spared the sinful nature that is passed through the blood. Since scripture tells us in many places that it is not complete, the explanation lies outside of scripture.


#15

[quote="po18guy, post:14, topic:280238"]
Yet, sin is passed through the blood. There is no scriptural explanation for how Jesus was spared the sinful nature that is passed through the blood. Since scripture tells us in many places that it is not complete, the explanation lies outside of scripture.

[/quote]

The blood in an infant come from the Father, Not the mother.
Jesus had God's blood in Him, Not Mary's.


#16

[quote="Gospel_Man, post:15, topic:280238"]
The blood in an infant come from the Father, Not the mother.
Jesus had God's blood in Him, Not Mary's.

[/quote]

This is the heresy known as docetism which all the apostolic Churches have condemned which suggests that Christ's physical nature was only incidental. Christ was both fully man AND fully God.


#17

[quote="Gospel_Man, post:15, topic:280238"]
The blood in an infant come from the Father, Not the mother.
Jesus had God's blood in Him, Not Mary's.

[/quote]

Uh...biologically, the blood comes from the mother. There is no physically possible way for the blood to come from the father. Mother and fetus literally share a bloodstream for a while. So Jesus certainly did have Mary's blood.


#18

[quote="Farsight001, post:17, topic:280238"]
Uh...biologically, the blood comes from the mother. There is no physically possible way for the blood to come from the father. Mother and fetus literally share a bloodstream for a while. So Jesus certainly did have Mary's blood.

[/quote]

Absolutely, which is why she is the theotokos, the God bearer and revered as such as the most singular woman in human history.


#19

[quote="Gospel_Man, post:15, topic:280238"]
The blood in an infant come from the Father, Not the mother.
Jesus had God's blood in Him, Not Mary's.

[/quote]

I would think that you would respect the bible a little more. Jesus had to come from the bloodline of His ancestor, David.

Where does the bible say that Jesus did not have His mother's blood? You cannot say it unless the bible says it.

Since Jesus created His own mother, are you not actually criticizing your Lord?


#20

[quote="Gospel_Man, post:15, topic:280238"]
The blood in an infant come from the Father, Not the mother.
Jesus had God's blood in Him, Not Mary's.

[/quote]

You are using a sola scriptura model it seems thus far. Yet the last poster before me has just shown you have departed from it yourself. If Christ was not fully man as well as God his sacrifice would have been meaningless as Christ suffered WITH mankind and was tempted like us. If was divine and merely appeared human the whole narrative of the Gospels would be fatally undercut.


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