Did Purgatory exist before Jesus became man?


#1

In the OT, David was offering indulgences for the dead . In the book of Maccabees we also see offerings for the dead.

But I thought the heaven’s gate was closed after original sin was committed. More so, Jesus descended to the dead (hell) to get the good people there after his death just as stated in the **Apostles’ Creed. **

That’s why I was thinking surely there must have been no souls in Purgatory, hence David and OT people cannot pray for the souls because heaven was still closed before Jesus became man. Or is it the Jews can already can enter into heaven?
Any thoughts?


#2

“Hell” in this context means the world or abode of the dead. Not necessarily the “Place that was prepared for the Devil and his angels”.

The souls of the righteous dead couldn’t enter Heaven until Christ had died for us…but surely they weren’t condemned to torment in Hell while they waited!:eek:
It follows that they had some other place to wait, which allows for the presence of Purgatory to let them be purified of their sins, and perhaps another place for the fully perfected/purified to wait without further pain.


#3

He will raise the living and the dead.


#4

[quote=Reepicheep]“Hell” in this context means the world or abode of the dead. Not necessarily the “Place that was prepared for the Devil and his angels”.

The souls of the righteous dead couldn’t enter Heaven until Christ had died for us…but surely they weren’t condemned to torment in Hell while they waited!:eek:
It follows that they had some other place to wait, which allows for the presence of Purgatory to let them be purified of their sins, and perhaps another place for the fully perfected/purified to wait without further pain.
[/quote]

“The bossom of Abraham”


#5

MrS,

Words like “until” and “while” have no meaning in the other world, which is beyond space and time.

There is no “place” called “purgatory”. How could there be since we know that “souls” have no body, don’t occupy space? There is, as yet, no “place” called “heaven” (except perhaps for Jesus and Mary), or “hell”.

So it is futile for us to strain our brain on questions like “what happened before” and “what happened after” .They just are not pertinent in the other world. Enough to know that whoever died in the friendship of God got to heaven in one way or another.

Of course, in our human discouse, we have to use earthly expressions, like "when Christ died, he went to “get” the souls who were “waiting” for him. But in God’s world, there is only the present. This is beyong our comprehension.

Verbum


#6

the rich man saw the beggar in the bosom of Abraham…

Luke 16:
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

so, the rich man was in torment… hell… and Lazarus was in
Abraham’s bosom…

:slight_smile:


#7

Just to be clear, purgatory and Abraham’s bosom (or Limbus Patrum) are seperate ‘places’ or ‘states’.

The righteous who had died before Christ awaited His coming in Limbus Patrum, or Abraham’s Bosom.

They endured cleansing in purgatory prior to this ‘place’ and were prepared for Heaven when Christ opened the Gates.

It is principally on the strength of these Scriptural texts, harmonized with the general doctrine of the Fall and Redemption of mankind, **that Catholic tradition has defended the existence of the limbus patrum as a temporary state or place of happiness distinct from **Purgatory. As a result of the Fall, Heaven was closed against men. Actual possession of the beatific vision was postponed, even for those already purified from sin, until the Redemption should have been historically completed by Christ’s visible ascendancy into Heaven. Consequently, the just who had lived under the Old Dispensation, and who, either at death or after a course of purgatorial discipline, had attained the perfect holiness required for entrance into glory, were obliged to await the coming of the Incarnate Son of God and the full accomplishment of His visible earthly mission. Meanwhile they were “in prison,” as St. Peter says; but, as Christ’s own words to the penitent thief and in the parable of Lazarus clearly imply, their condition was one of happiness, notwithstanding the postponement of the higher bliss to which they looked forward. And this, substantially, is all that Catholic tradition teaches regarding the limbus patrum.

Catholic Encyclopedia- Limbo
newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm


closed #8

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