Did St Cyprian and St Augustine mention the nakedness of jesus?


#1

I have read this passage on this website,

womenpriests.org/body/nakedwo

(((( How did the Romans treat those who were crucified? Contemporary writers, such as Artemidorus and Arnanus, have left descriptions that imply that the unhappy victims were, indeed, left totally naked. Some of the Fathers of the Church, such as St Cyprian and St Augustine meditated on the nakedness of Jesus in words that show they were convinced that total nakedness was one of the humiliations inflicted on him. Weighing the evidence I believe that, in all probability, Jesus did not wear a loincloth on the cross. ))))

I tried to find where St Cyprian and St Augustine mentioned that thing , on ccel.org and in “catholic encyclopedia”…but failed , plz give me a link to their actual words about this subject , where did they say that jesus was crucified totally naked ??

any other early church father who also said that ?link plz

I want links to their actual words about this subject , not to all of their works

did any of the early church fathers say any thing about total nakedness of jesus ???


#2

Why on earth would you give any credibility to a website supporting women priests??


#3

I do not give them credibility

but I just wanted to make sure ,

did St Cyprian and St Augustine really say that jesus was crucified totally naked ???


#4

St. Cyprian:

And when the sun had come 'round to mid-heaven
they took him, stood apart and stretched him out
with stake after stake, now here, now there, incessant,
and naked, since his clothes lay in the palace,
straight up at the foot of the mast-beam, then fastened cables around him
very high up in the air, while the mob was shouting behind him.

Crucifixion was routinely performed on naked victims, so it should be no surprise that Our Lord submitted Himself to this total humiliation. We have been sanitized in our art to the reality of what He experienced.


#5

I too have heard that crucifixion victims were nude. Which means it all probility that Jesus was also nude. This brings up a reflection on the lioncloth that the corpus of Jesus has on pictures of crucifixes and crucifixes. Has anyone noticed that the lioncloth looks like it was loosely and haphazardly put on? Sort of an afterthought.
Yes, the artwork has been sanitized. I’m not sure we should make new crucifixes or artwork that reflects Our Lord’s nakedness. Can you imagine if that was done. That would make the debate between TLM and NO Masses look tame. Just my humble opinion.


#6

Oh, I agree with you, Patrick.


#7

Ditto. Considering the source, I would dismiss the article immediately.


#8

My dad, who is a Protestant, always has said that Jesus was naked on the cross. Though not a credible source for this site or answering the question of this thread, he pointed, if I recall correctly, to the soldiers drawing lots for Jesus’ seamless garment. That was an undergarment, wasn’t it? Maybe, if nothing else, you can see if this has been asked in the, ‘Ask the Apologist,’ folder, or ask the question, if you are still curious.

As far as what Sts Cyprian & Augustine said on the issue, I think, if one was to find this truth, it would take more than an internet search; i.e., read through all of the works they penned, which is no way to get an answer quickly.


#9

Okay then why are you even reading stuff in a site supporting women priests?


#10

Says who it was an undergarment? Who’d even WANT Jesus undergarments, seriously? Let alone see them as something of such good quality that they couldn’t bear to cut it into pieces?

My impression is that the ‘seamless garment’ is an outer garment, perhaps a cloak or something.


#11

St Cyprian said that ???

or Eudocia ???

see this link

home.infionline.net/~ddisse/eudocia.html

“…while the mob was shouting behind him.”

[On the crucifixion of Jesus, with lines reminding the reader/listener of Hector, of Patroclus, and of Odysseus tied to the mast:]

And when the sun had come 'round to mid-heaven
they took him, stood apart and stretched him out
with stake after stake, now here, now there, incessant,
and naked, since his clothes lay in the palace,
straight up at the foot of the mast-beam, then fastened cables around him
very high up in the air, while the mob was shouting behind him. [ll.1872-77; p.70]


#12

‘Undergarment’ has a meaning beyond ‘underwear’; it can also mean ‘inner garment’, which is what a tunic (cf. John 19: 23 “They also took his tunic, but it was seamless, woven in one piece from the top down…”), also known as a chiton, tunica or haluq was; a basic and the innermost piece of clothing in the Ancient world, kind of like an undershirt.

The tunic was usually made of two rectangular pieces of cloth joined in a long seam along the top of the arms, with a hole left for the head to go through. It also had a seam running down both sides, with holes left for the arms (this what made Jesus’ tunic valuable, as it was ‘out of the ordinary’).

Working men usually wore a knee-length version of the tunic while women and men whose occupations do not involve moving much commonly wore an ankle-length one. This tunic is kept tucked by a (leather or cloth) belt or girdle, which can also be used to hold money, tools or weapons. When men needed freedom to work, run or fight, they would tuck the hem of the tunic into the girdle to gain greater freedom and movement.

As an overall (‘upper garment’), people wore a rectangular or oblong cloak (himation, pallium); Jews, in obedience to the commandment in Deuteronomy 22: 12 and Numbers 15:38-39, had tassels (tzitzit) on each corner of their cloaks (these are the ‘fringes’ the woman with the hemorrhage touched when she touched Jesus’ garment).

The cloak was quite a necessary item as it was also used as a blanket and a sleeping mat and without it, you would be freezing in the cold nights in the region; Jewish law regards a cloak as a truly valuable item to the point that God even dictated that when a cloak is taken as a pledge for debt, it should be returned to its owner at sundown (Exodus 22: 26-27).

At that time, Jewish man would often wear something on his head, for practical reasons (protection from the hot sun or from cold wind). But one should note that the tallit (prayer shawl) we see on Jews today was not yet invented in the 1st century;
having only come into general use somewhere around the 3rd.

As for loincloths, while there were people who wore them, there were also people who didn’t (this isn’t the 21st century after all) and who just don the tunic. Thus in the 1st century, even if you wore a tunic, but did not have any belt, you are already ‘stripped’ or ‘naked’. But since the soldiers already have taken Jesus’ tunic along with His other clothes, we can at least be sure that Jesus is ‘naked’ in the modern sense, perhaps down to His loincloth (if He actually wore any) during His crucifixion.

A tunic and a cloak (along with sandals) is the most basic piece of clothing (and possession) that even a poor person could have. Being ‘naked’ in public is a disgrace, thus it would have been shocking to 1st-century listeners when Jesus preached that when someone asked for your cloak or tunic, you should hand it over.

There is no doubt that Crucifixion victims are naked (either with or without a loincloth), as it would have humiliated the victim further (what made Crucifixion notorious is the physical, mental and emotional pain it caused) and many of the scanty (there are said to be only half a dozen of them all in all) artworks we have from the time period when Crucifixion was still in use (somewhere before the 5th century) depict the victims as naked, either with or without loincloths (as a general rule of thumb, these aren’t depictions made by Christians, who still didn’t depict the Crucifixion overtly during this time period, but usually by Anti-Christians and Gnostics):

The Alexamenos graffito (somewhere around 85 AD-3rd Century), the earliest image known of the Crucifixion

http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/389/crucifixiongemtu6.png

A magical gem (gems used as amulets) from the Eastern Mediterranean, perhaps Syria (Late 2nd-3rd C.)

http://www.beazley.ox.ac.uk/gems/styles/EarlyChristian/Image/10.jpg

A magical gem made of Carnelian, 3rd C.?

http://www.hypotyposeis.org/weblog/uploaded_images/crucifix3-794756.JPG

Magical Gem from the Eastern Mediterranean, 4th-5th C.

Wooden (Cypress) panel from door in Santa Sabina, 5th C.

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/8892/ps297856lbj4.jpg

Panel from a small ivory box, 420-430 AD


#13

As an aside, if Jesus was actually hung nude on the Cross without the privilege of wearing a loincloth, I find it interesting that through a tree, Adam brought death to humanity while naked while Jesus the New Adam, through the tree of the Cross brought life to mankind while naked.


#14

St. Cyprian in ‘The Good of Patience’ (Chapter 7) does mention that Jesus ‘was stripped of His earthly garment’ which may imply nudity, but this is a rather vague description as he does not say explicitly whether Jesus is naked (i.e. without a loincloth) or not:

…But in that very hour of His passion and cross, before they had come to the cruel act of His slaughter and the shedding of His blood, what violent abuses He listened to with patience, and what shameful insults He endured!

He was even covered with the spittle of His revilers, when, but a short time before, with His own spittle He had cured the eyes of the blind man.
He Himself suffered the lash, in whose name His servants now scourge the devil and His angels.
He who now crowns the martyrs with eternal garlands was Himself crowned with thorns;
He who now gives true palms to the victors was beaten in the face with hostile palms;
He who clothes all others with the garment of immortality was stripped of His earthly garment;
He who has given the food of heaven was fed with gall;
He who has offered us the cup of salvation was given vinegar to drink.
He the innocent, He the just, nay rather, Innocence Itself and Justice Itself is counted among criminals, and Truth is concealed by false testimonies.
He who is to judge is judged, and the Word of God, silent, is led to the Cross.

And although the stars are confounded at the Crucifixion of the Lord, the elements are disturbed, the earth trembles, night blots out the day, the sun withdraws both its rays and its eyes lest it be forced to gaze upon the crime of the Jews, yet He does not speak, nor is He moved, nor does He proclaim His majesty, even during the suffering itself. He endures all things even to the end with constant perseverance so that in Christ a full and perfect patience may find its realization.


#15

I think it requires a lot of search to find where did St Cyprian or St Augustine say that ???( If they had said it )

I am still searching ,

f u find any thing about this subject in the early church fathers writings , paste it here ,

what I know is , the Romans used to crucify the ppl naked ,

but I am searching for what early chruch fathers said about this subject .


#16

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