I would like to rephrase a question from another post.
Do you have proof that your church saved people? What proof do you have?
I would like to rephrase a question from another post.
Unless I’m reading the question wrong, I don’t think the Lutheran church has saved anybody. We would say that God has saved us.
So you have no proof…
What do you mean saved? Do you mean how the Catholic Church saved the lives of 800k+ Jew or Albanian Besa? Or are we talking in the theological sense?
Save? Personally - I invest.
We know that the mystical body of our lord,is the church.To be in that body you must first of all to be in the body of a wordly chuch, no? With the help of this wordly church one can make it in the mystical body of our Lord. Does you church prove to be like this?
Who says that my “church” has to “save” anyone?
How do “we” know that?
Do you mean “worldly” church? If so, what do you mean by the term “worldly”? Though the church is “in” the world, I would not consider the church “worldly.”
What kind of help are you referring to? If someone is already apart of this worldly church, which is the mystical body of our Lord, then they are already in the mystical body of our Lord and would not need any help to “make it in” that said body. What exactly are you saying?
Prove to be like what? The mystical body of our lord? How does one go about “proving” that their “church” is the “mystical body of Christ” and that other “churches” are not that said body?
Who are you questioning? non Catholics? if so your post is rather inflammatory eh?:shrug:
Are you referring to “outside the Church there is no Salvation?”
846…it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head thruogh the Church which is his body…
How does a church save people? By doing what is necesary for their salvation, starting with baptism instruction and so on. You dont know what a wordly church is? Any congregation for Christ name. Do you have proof that somebody from your church has been saved?
Yes, plenty of proof! Plenty of proof that through God’s grace in the Church, and through the Sacraments and living Jesus’ command to love God above all and others as self, many Catholics unite their lives to Jesus and live in God’s grace, accepting Christ’s salvation. We don’t claim to be perfect, but we know our souls are saved through God’s grace and the Sacraments are given by God to sanctify our souls.
Stay around these forums long enough and you will see evidence of many members who have received God’s graces of salvation, healing, and conversion through God’s grace in the Church. Your question doesn’t seem to be asked in an especially friendly way, that’s the feeling I get from you…but perhaps it is just because you haven’t had time to really look at the Church and understand it. You might like to read 'the Catechism of the Catholic Church to find out how profoundly the Church blesses the salvation of souls.
Aside from numerous ordinary Catholics throughout the ages who have received and welcomed God’s saving graces through God’s grace in the Sacraments, there are many saints who have welcomed God’s saving graces through the Sacraments and prayer.
Some were sinners to begin with, like saint like St Francis of Assisi and and Saint Augustine. St Francis was worldly not religious as a teenager but gave his life entirely to Christ in the Church. Saint Augustine was a known sinner with a mistress and an illegitimate son, but later he came to accept God’s salvation in the Church through Confession, Eucharist, and his life given over to Christ.
Like Many people, without the Sacraments and the blessings of the Church, I also might never have found salvation. The Sacraments have helped my life enormously, as is true for all Catholics who seek Christ and give their lives to Christ in the Church.
I like your post.
I think I understand your question a bit better now that you’ve elaborated - if you are asking if our Church, as part of Christ’s body and with the sacraments of Baptism and Christs true Body and true Blood has saved souls, and with the grace of God, then yes.
Remember, Lutherans don’t think of ourselves as a separate Church in that we view ourselves as part of one holy, catholic, and apostolic church.
So as a member of valid continuation of the Western Church, most any proof you could offer, I could offer as well.
Of course, feel free to disagree with that, but that’s how we see it.
As an aside, I find the question a bit troubling from a Catholic perspective - as I understand it, even with “no salvation outside of church.” Catholic doctrine says that salvation outside of church is still in God’s hands. So I would say your question would be better asked in prayer. We could use all the help we can get.
I think the OP could have been a bit nicer in the way he asked. It seems like he is trying to pick a fight with non-catholics.
English my second language. Sorry, my intention was a plain and simple question.
There was the post asking why do you think your church is a good one. So I thought a more relevant question would be the one that I’v asked.
The only way I know how is by proclaiming the gospel. But the “church” doesn’t save. The church is participating in God’s saving work, but it is not the church that saves.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Everything that the church does should proclaim the gospel. When we baptize people, we are proclaiming the gospel. When we share in communion, we are proclaiming the gospel. When we gather to be taught from the word, we proclaim the gospel.
There are many who have been transformed by Christ in my church. If you knew them before they became Christians you’d see they are completely different people. The Bible says that we will know them by their fruits. What other kind of proof are you looking for? A baptismal certificate?
Would you take the Catholic Church’s word for it?
"Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274** Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation**, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276
How about Cardinal Ratzinger
I count among the most important results of the ecumenical dialogues the insight that the issue of the eucharist cannot be narrowed to the problem of ‘validity.’ Even a theology oriented to the concept of succession, such as that which holds in the Catholic and in the Orthodox church, need not in any way deny the salvation-granting presence of the Lord [Heilschaffende Gegenwart des Herrn] in a Lutheran [evangelische] Lord’s Supper.(166)
Or the *Decree on Ecumenism *of Vatican II ?
Our separated brothers and sisters also celebrate many sacred actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each church or community, and must be held capable of giving access to that communion in which is salvation.
Or, maybe just St. Peter:
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.
Lutheran baptize, and the CC accepts our Baptism as valid.
Now, I don’t know, can’t know, which Lutherans are in the Church Triumphant, but the testimony of Scripture and the CC seems to indicate there are Lutherans saved.
A Confirmation certificate actually. You can’t get married without it. ;)
That’s what my son said to me when I insist he goes for Confirmation class.:shrug:
I don’t think a church saves people. I believe God saves people from Himself.
God saves people through His Church. Sometimes God tries to be funny. Why he does that when he could do everything by Himself!