Dion Fortune, occultism


#1

Hi everybody. Lately i’ve encountered a link to a book by Dion Fortune - Psychic Self Defence. I started reading and found it rather interesting and tried to learn a little about the author. I found out that she was occultist and kabbalah follower and now i want your opinion about all this.

What is occultism? Just don’t tell me it is a way leading to devil etc. because i actually don’t beleive in God, Devil and other higher creatures. What i want to know is whether occultists are another aggresive sect that would milk you for money like Ron Hubbard and his Scientology guys or they are just an “order” that maintain their knowledge and don’t abuse of people. What do you know about them?

Another question - magic, is it a high level ou man’s natural abilities, a rare gift or a simple lie?

I prey you will not shout it is all devil’s work and give background for your opinion. Thank you.


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#2

There’s no single order of occultists. There are many orders and there are also many solo practitioners. I suppose some could be as ruinous financially as Scientology and some are not, but in my experience no one reveals their “secrets” for free and occultism is all about secret knowledge.


#3

[quote=santana]I found out that she was occultist and kabbalah follower and now i want your opinion about all this.

What is occultism? Just don’t tell me it is a way leading to devil etc. because i actually don’t beleive in God, Devil and other higher creatures. What i want to know is whether occultists are another aggresive sect that would milk you for money like Ron Hubbard and his Scientology guys or they are just an “order” that maintain their knowledge and don’t abuse of people. What do you know about them?
Another question - magic, is it a high level ou man’s natural abilities, a rare gift or a simple lie?
I prey you will not shout it is all devil’s work and give background for your opinion. Thank you.


charity-fund.org

[/quote]

Well, it is against our religion, our way of life, and everything we Catholics believe in, so I don’t exactly know what you want us to say??? You want our opinion, but don’t want our opinion?

I would say it’s probably a guru -centered organization out for money and power. If you don’t want a devout Catholic’s opinon and beliefs about the occult, don’t ask for it, because I won’t sugar coat it for you, or ignore who I am to give you an athiest-friendly “opinion” I would be going against truth. I believe in the spirit world, because I have expeienced it in my own life and don’t want anything to do with it if it’s not from God. My opinion is it’s either “real” and up to no good, or “fake” and up to no good.

Your question about magic:
It depends on the Magic, if it is a bunch of tricks for fun (as in a Magic show), or whether it is actually dealing with the spirit world. I won’t go beyond that because you obviously don’t want a real answer, and I doubt many of us will waste time researching this occult cult for you just so you can ignore what we have to say about it.
Cheers!


#4

santana,

I know one guy that was delivered from occultism. He admits he had a self-esteem problem and got involved to find friends (who were all poor). But he met and married a good Christian woman and she brought him to Christ.

Magic is a no-no. Most of it is trickery. The rest is truely evil.

SATAN CAN DESTROY YOUR SOUL FOR ETERNITY IN THE FIRES OF HELL!

Put your thinking cap on. Why do you advertise such a wonderful website that helps children in desperate need. Why? Because you love them and care for them. Where does love come from? Love has it’s beginning in God because God is the source of all love. Wheather you know it or not, you love children because God gave you the gift of love. Who is the ultimate defender of children? God. God has given every child a Guardian Angel and that Guardian Angel has guarenteed access to Almighty God constantly on behalf of that child. Pretty impressive. You are closer to God than you think.


#5

Thank you very much for your replies. I admit it was a little incorrect to ask Catholics for a “athiest-friendly” opinion. I see your point, it is quite predictable. But i have learnt what i wanted - that they at least haven’t got the reputation of complete charlatans and that’s more than enough, for i didn’t mean to follow them at all. Moreover, while reading on the book devoted to methods of psycho defence, i have encountered tons of poetry and almost nothing to the point. You seem to be right, **jennstall, **saying that they do not open their secrets for free. By the way, “occult” means “to hide”.

But. While surfing and visiting many sites about magic, yoga and psychology, i have met a certain number of manuals teaching how to: see the aura of yourself and the others, to develop telekinesis abilities, how to leave your body (staying alive:)) and visit some comon dimentions, how to develop telekinesis abilities etc. And some of those authors, say that they can easily prove their abilities. (It was with telekinesis - the man said you can write me an e-mail if you want and i will show you that i really can do it). Note that all those manuals are for free, their authors surely had no purpose to sell them or get any profit any other way.

So do you beleive that man can learn to manipulate his internal energy (nothing connected with magic, satanism etc), develop his hidden abilities of moving objects, reading thoughts, see through walls and do other innocent and useful things? Do you condemn such actions if a person already CAN do some of this? (Let me remind you that Moses surely was telekinesis-able, when he moved away the part of the sea, and that God and his angels constantly use telepathy when communicating with people)
Thank you.


charity-fund.org


#6

I’m deeply skeptical by nature and I have a great deal of scepticism towards even “approved” miracles so I might be the wrong Catholic to really answer this question, but my own opinion is that most of the so-called proveable psychic abilities are one of the following:

  1. purposely fraudulent
  2. a product of wishful thinking
  3. a product of psychosis

As for God, He is God. He can do anything. Was Moses telekinetic or was it God working the miracle through Moses? Somehow I doubt it was a natural ability of Moses to part the Red Sea.

If you want to spend some time Googling, try looking up the term “cold reading” and read about some of the techniques used by frauds to convince the gullible that a total stranger knows something about them. It is a skill put into practice by salespeople and gamblers as well as “magicians” and a lot of it has to do with reading body language and using leading questions until you get a hit (John Edwards of “Crossing Over” infamy uses this technique ALL the time). For instance, card players say that everyone has a “tell” and a good card player can spot someone else’s “tell” and interpret it. It’s a completely natural human skill that can be developed by anyone who is willing to pay attention to the nuances of non-verbal communication. I remember coming across a really good website at one point that explained the cold reading method in detail so you may come across it.

I read Dion Fortune years ago and from what I remember most of her idea are just recycled from Gerald Gardner, the Golden Dawn, Rosecrucians, etc. But ask yourself this? If all this stuff was actually possible after applied study, wouldn’t these people be running nations instead of writing books for small press publishers? :wink:

Edited to add link.

Here’s that webpage I mentioned.
skeptics.com.au/journal/coldread.htm

Just as an aside, I used to do tarot readings for friends & acquaintances and they always used to marvel at my incredible insight, but I know that it was just because I’m a much closer listener than most people. That’s my talent and there are no psychic abilities involved. And you can manipulate Tarot cards to say anything you want because if you look in a tarot book, every single card has multiple positive and negative meanings.

I find the most entertaining use of tarot cards is to use them to character-type television characters. Completely made-up people are so much easier to read LOL


#7

[quote=santana]What is occultism?
[/quote]

It is any business with what is hidden from our senses and instrumentation—dealing with the supernatural. Most religions touch upon occultism. The only way to be free of it is to adhere to metaphysical naturalism, the worldview that nature (what can be observed) is all there is.

What i want to know is whether occultists are another aggresive sect that would milk you for money like Ron Hubbard and his Scientology guys or they are just an “order” that maintain their knowledge and don’t abuse of people. What do you know about them?

From above you can see it’s impossible to make a sweeping statement about occultists.

Another question - magic, is it a high level ou man’s natural abilities, a rare gift or a simple lie?

Magic is a science and an art. Anyone can practise it, but it needs study.


#8

What is not done by the glory of God, if it is supernatural, is not good. Supernatural “magic” practiced by all the many kinds of wicca, witch, sorcerers, spiritualists, mediums, psychics, etc… is nothing but their own personal idea of prayer and meditation in most cases and is not only harmless but also entirely imaginary, and although that is reason enough to leave it alone, there is also the extreme other side of the coin which involves people who are actually in touch with evil spiritual entities. We are forbidden to consult with spirits and demons.


#9

[quote=Cherub]Supernatural “magic” practiced by all the many kinds of wicca, witch, sorcerers, spiritualists, mediums, psychics, etc… is nothing but their own personal idea of prayer and meditation in most cases and is not only harmless but also entirely imaginary,
[/quote]

Prove it.

Or … if you say “the burden of proof is on the positive claimant,” as atheists do, then prove your prayer is not imaginary, that the Catholic magic of turning a wafer into the flesh and blood of the Creator of the universe is real and not imagined.


#10

Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth. That is all the proof that I require. However, if you are asking me to prove something to you, then I can not, because that is not for me to do. Ask God yourself. He is not going to lie to you, I do promise you that. If you actually want to know what is the truth, and if you are willing to listen for it and to hear it, then it will be yours.


#11

[quote=Cherub]What is not done by the glory of God, if it is supernatural, is not good. Supernatural “magic” practiced by all the many kinds of wicca, witch, sorcerers, spiritualists, mediums, psychics, etc… is nothing but their own personal idea of prayer and meditation in most cases and is not only harmless but also entirely imaginary, and although that is reason enough to leave it alone, there is also the extreme other side of the coin which involves people who are actually in touch with evil spiritual entities. We are forbidden to consult with spirits and demons.
[/quote]

Heathen you are the one that believes it isn’t imaginary. I think it is your job to prove it.


#12

[quote=Heathen Dawn]Prove it.

Or … if you say “the burden of proof is on the positive claimant,” as atheists do, then prove your prayer is not imaginary, that the Catholic magic of turning a wafer into the flesh and blood of the Creator of the universe is real and not imagined.
[/quote]

We call it faith, you know as in the “Mystery of Faith”. We could go into a whole thread of that.


#13

Yes I believe that people can learn to manipulate their internal hidden abilities, not everyone can and only a few can do it well. My only concern is what a person is possibly opening themselves up to. The Spirit world is very much real, whether you believe in God or not, and you may unknowingly open yourself up to spirits who are up to no good. (I would say evil, but you would probably scoff) We don’t condemn these gifts as some saints have had them. We believe the Holy Sprit worked with these individuals and their gifts for miraculous works. I know you don’t believe in God but take care when opening yourself up to this sort of thing. It may seem innocent enough, but you may find yourself involved in something you had not planned on. I suggest you study exorcisms, if you are interested in the “unknown” One of the best saints you could study is Padre Pio. He had many gifts you might be interested in. I will find a link and send it. I would be more than happy to explore and discuss these topics.


#14

[quote=Cherub]Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth. That is all the proof that I require. However, if you are asking me to prove something to you, then I can not, because that is not for me to do. Ask God yourself. He is not going to lie to you, I do promise you that. If you actually want to know what is the truth, and if you are willing to listen for it and to hear it, then it will be yours.
[/quote]

My demand for proof of the Eucharistic miracle was a rhetorical device rather than a real challenge, as I do not adhere to a philosophical system that forces me to be sceptical of such things. But I wished to warn you of the slippery slope that leads to just that. When you say someone’s prayer is not real, you open the door to the possibility that your own prayer is not real. Or when you say someone’s deity does not really exist, you open the door to the possibility that your own deity does not exist. The slightest demand for empirical, scientific evidence of supernatural belief on your part must backfire, it cannot but be the small wedge that fells the tree of supernaturalistic belief and replaces it with naturalistic atheism.

May your God be with you and guard you from scepticism.


#15

[quote=Heathen Dawn]My demand for proof of the Eucharistic miracle was a rhetorical device rather than a real challenge, as I do not adhere to a philosophical system that forces me to be sceptical of such things. But I wished to warn you of the slippery slope that leads to just that. When you say someoneÕs prayer is not real, you open the door to the possibility that your own prayer is not real. Or when you say someoneÕs deity does not really exist, you open the door to the possibility that your own deity does not exist. The slightest demand for empirical, scientific evidence of supernatural belief on your part must backfire, it cannot but be the small wedge that fells the tree of supernaturalistic belief and replaces it with naturalistic atheism.

May your God be with you and guard you from scepticism.
[/quote]

Do not think that you have taught any sort of lesson. Perhaps this should be a lesson to you, that the world is not subjective to your perspective. Your focus does not determine your reality, whether you dream so or not. You have not shown a “slippery slope” to me, nor has any “door to the possibility” of anything been opened (or even demonstrated to exist.) I hope you are not so arrogant as to suppose your mere intellectual observations can stand up to the power of God. Such things are only of earth and earthly minds, and are not eternal. God is not my God, but also yours. It does not matter whether you believe it. If you were a food processor that didn’t believe in Cuisinart, it would still be Cuisinart who made you, and all the other food processors would pity you and hope you recovered from your delusion. Your “gods” don’t exist; “my” God made you. Big difference.


#16

[quote=Cherub]Your focus does not determine your reality, whether you dream so or not.
[/quote]

This applies to everyone. Your belief in Christianity does not make it the truth.

You have not shown a “slippery slope” to me, nor has any “door to the possibility” of anything been opened (or even demonstrated to exist.)

It is a matter of fact: up until a few millennia ago, there was no such thing as a “false God.” People did not worship other people’s Gods, but they did not disbelieve in Them either; a Greek travelling to Egypt would not be a Horus-worshipper, but he would readily acknowledge the existence of Horus. Then came Judaism, with its newfangled invention of monotheism, the denial of the existence of all Gods except one. You know what that has spawned: scepticism and atheism! Atheism is the fruit of the Jews’, Christians’ and Muslims’ intellectual wombs. Unless you believe in all the Gods, you’re nearly an atheist. A monotheist is, after all, an atheist with only one exception. As atheist Stephen F Roberts said to a Christian opponent: “I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”

God is not my God, but also yours.

He is not my God, He is not the only God, and He is not the Creator of the universe. He is just one God among thousands. That is the truth. Your believing otherwise does not make it so.

Your “gods” don’t exist; “my” God made you.

Unsupported assertion. Come back with proof and I’ll believe you. So far, none of the monotheists have ever proved the truth of their proposition.


#17

[quote=Heathen Dawn]This applies to everyone. Your belief in Christianity does not make it the truth.
[/quote]

If you think you are being logical or reasonable, you should polish up those blades before breaking them out in public. I will not fight an unarmed opponent.


#18

[quote=jennstall]Just as an aside, I used to do tarot readings for friends & acquaintances and they always used to marvel at my incredible insight…
[/quote]

I used to do the same, but using astrology. I was interested in the personality types as understood in astrology and would do astral charts for acquaintances and relatives and often found myself in the same position.

People would allow me to approach them and they would then open their lives to me. It didn’t take me too long (well, maybe 3 or 4 years is too long) to realize that I was reading more from non-verbal communication and from filling in the blanks in what I heard than from a map of the sky.

It’s nothing but hogwash.


#19

[quote=Heathen Dawn]You know what that has spawned: scepticism and atheism! Atheism is the fruit of the Jews’, Christians’ and Muslims’ intellectual wombs.
[/quote]

This statement is quite telling. Let me just say that when French revolutionaires put “godesses” of Reason on altars and actually built churches of Positivism, they were doing nothing but worshiping yet another god.

And when atheists weekly meet to talk about Humanism, they too are worshiping another god.

As a matter of fact, they all worship just one same god, as did pagans of all times: themselves. It’s not unheard of. It’s happened millions of times, starting with Adam, Caim, etc. That’s what’s called in Catholic theology original sin.


#20

[quote=santana]What is occultism?
[/quote]

Occultism originated with Mme. Blavatsky about a century ago. In a few words, occultism is a melange of eastern beliefs mixed with western paganism. Or at least this is what its label says. It really was an enterprise that Mme. Blavtsky made a living from.

Over time, many others seeing her success among the rich copied her model, such as Golden Dawn, founded by Crowley (a “nice” chap known for sacrificing babies), to the more recent Children of God (that one which advocates that Heaven is as far away as the number of people you don’t have sex with, starting at the age of 2 or so) and Heaven’s Gate (notorious for ripping off its suicidal followers’ fortune).

They all turn into some sort of gnostic toll-road: you are first convinced that you need to do something to achieve a higher state of being (whatever name is given to it); then you are convinced that whatever organization has the “manual” on those things you need to do; then you’re convinced that it’s fair and square to give them moneys to get that “manual”; then you’re convinced that it’s OK to be told later that that “manual” was just the first volume and that what you paid was just the first installment.

As any business, you’ll find that the marketing strategies are different, such as “the first volume is free”, etc, but in the end it all ends up in the same thing and in the same interim: go ahead with your life with no regard to limitations to your whim (paraphrasing Crowley), even killing.

No wonder that occultism played a big role in Nazi symbolism and myths…


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