Dirty Laundry - The History of the Catholic Church


#1

forums.catholic.com/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=250352

Now we can talk about these subjects without going off topic. :bigyikes:


#2

In an article in This Rock magazine of Sept. 2007 there is a wonderful article on the Spanish Inquisition called “An Inquisition Primer”

catholic.com/thisrock/2007/0709tbt.asp

Here is where you will find the article.
Jeanne


#3

What issues specifically would you like to address? :slight_smile:


#4

Here is another article from the same magazine
Secrets of the Spanish Inquisition Revealed

catholic.com/thisrock/2007/0711tbt.asp

Jeanne


#5

The millions of people killed in persecutions ordered by Popes troughout Church history. Also persectutions of less than a million, because that would be wrong too. Also, persecutions at the hands of Catholics, because if they killed innocent people, the Pope could have made them stop, and Catholics always do what the Pope tells them to.

We could start with the Crusades. :smiley:


#6

Corrupt Popes, Cardinals, Bishops and Priests and somehow, some people believe that the Church remains as pure as fresh fallen snow?

Power and control over the laity.

Close relationships with the powerful elite, monarchs, emperors and those in power.

The institutionalization of salvation.


#7

There are tons of threads here on the crusades. They were a product of their times, born of a call from the Byzantine emperor to the Pope to help him defend the Holy Land (which was in Christian hands) from an invasion of hostile Muslims.

What specific problems do you have with the Crusades?


#8

I don’t think anyone believes that the Church remains pure as fresh fallen snow, indeed, in An Introduction to Christianity, the now Pope, then Cardinal Ratzinger bemoans the damage done by us to the cause of the faith. But the Church is made up of sinners, and we all sin. Lord knows, the Scripture is like a masterclass in what to expect-- Jesus admonishes Peter as Satan, Peter betrays Him, Jesus even picks Judas as one of the twelve. Is it realistic to expect that a Church of human beings would be without a single sinner for two thousand years?

What is important is the function of the Church and the Pope has remained intact-- the protection of the fides quae.


#9

I know, but somehow people keep derailing threads with accusations, and Catholics fall for it. Then the thread goes off topic and gets closed.


#10

I believe that Popes, Cardinals, Bishops, and priests are human beings, sinners, as we all are. The Church, however cannot sin or err.


#11

I see you changed your profile to “progressive christian”. Oh well.

In my experience of any institution few if any people will say the it is as pure as the driven snow. Anything that a human touches tends to have some scandal about it. It is the nature of fallen man to sin.

Know of many non-Catholic groups that the “preacher” controls every move and action they do without checks and balances. Dissent is not allowed and shunning even to the point of ‘funerals’ being held occurs.

Billy Graham and others come to mind as to the rich and famous. So what is your point?

As for institutionalized salvation as you have called it in previous threads this has been answered. This dead horse can not be ridden or risen for that matter.


#12

What use is it to discuss these things that happened.
Yes we can beat up the Catholics.
Yes we can beat up the Protestants.
We can Blame the Popes,
We can blame refomers
We can Blame the Kings.
We can Blame the Moors,
We can Blame …

And deaf dumb and blind we can all fall together into the ditch.
If anyone would like to look at the upshot of rehashing old wounds they only need to look at the middle east.
Some of the tribal/religious/ethinc feuds going on over there are thousands of years old and many continue to die because of them. The Bloodletting just doesn’t stop.

Shall we continue to rehash the bad old days or shall we, today, be reborn once again in Christ and become a new Creature.

I will make a stand right here and now and apologize:
To ALL my fellow Christians
for ALL of the persecutions
By ALL the various powers
In ALL the various centuries
That were conducted in the name of our Lord, and which caused Our Dear Lord so much Pain.
May God forgive me, and ALL my fellow Christians for failing to live up to the fullness of our Faith and Christ’s command that we LOVE one another.

May God Forgive Us All.

Peace
James


#13

I will also say I am sorry for the failings of human kind.

I will make a stand right here and now and apologize:
To ALL my fellow Christians
for ALL of the persecutions
By ALL the various powers
In ALL the various centuries
That were conducted in the name of our Lord, and which caused Our Dear Lord so much Pain.
May God forgive me, and ALL my fellow Christians for failing to live up to the fullness of our Faith and Christ’s command that we LOVE one another.

May God Forgive Us All.

Peace

Kathleen Elsie


#14

:clapping: :tiphat: :clapping: :tiphat: Thank you for making that important point, Christine.


#15

The Church is made up of people.

If there were no people, there would be no Church.

People make mistakes, people sin.

Therefor, the Church, being made up of people, can in fact make mistakes.

Do not pretend that the RCC has special powers that no other institution on earth has and is immune from institutional error or rot from within.


#16

If you equate ALL of the actions of ALL of the People who are members of some community then absolutely NO institution of ANY kind will stand Scrutiny.

What is necessary in Discussion of ANY Group or institution is to sperate the teachings, goals, and underpinnings from the Actions of individuals - even leaders.
We have a tremendously vital democratic republic in the US. It would be even better if nobody committed a murder, or Robbed a bank.
We have an extremely vital Capitalist economy. It would be even better if the distrubution of wealth was more even and Greed was curbed.

The Church is made up of members, imperfect.
The Doctrines, the Ideals are from Christ, Perfect.

Do we Judge the Ideals of the Church by the relativistic approach of measuring the memebers?
Or do we measure the members by the Ideals of the Church and see that All have fallen short to one degree or another.

Do you judge the Ideals of an institution by the actions of some of the members?
If you do, you will find much disappointment in your journey.

Peace
James


#17

In Lumen Gentium 1:4 (The Dogmatic constitution of the Church) we find this quote from St. Cyprian: “Hence the universal Church is seen to be a people brought into unity from the unity of the Father, the Son and Spirit.”

With St. Cyprian, the Second Vatical Council spoke of “A People” as one organic whole, not as merely the sum of the number of individuals. That is because the Church is One Mystical Person of Christ and Body in a supernatural union of Grace by the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit in three states: of blessedness in Heaven, of purification after death, of visible communion on earth.

This means that Christ dwells in grace in all and only in all that comes from Him (what He joins to Himself), but not in any of what contradicts Himself. This is why there can not be a facile identification of the Church with its visible members with all the actions of all or any of its members. All that comes from the sin of its visible members, of course, is not the Church, because it departs from union with Christ. The opposite distortion is this “we are the Church” materially understood as one would of any other sociological grouping of humanity, which is a radical secularization of a Divine Mystery. This is why one can say that every member of the Visible Church sins, but the Church does not sin. Thus in the late Holy Father’s “apology” we see clearly that he does not identify the Church herself with the sins of which her sons and daughters, however lofty their position, have committed.

Thus the Church is Holy, not sinful as its members are (taken individually or materially, for there are many dead members of the Visible Church who are only materially, i.e., externally, joined to the Church and to Christ, who nevertheless have the opportunity of being revived, especially by the prayers and sacrifices of the alive members.)

It can be difficult for some to see this since they approach the issue superficially, materially, without understanding the depth of the union of Christ with His Visible Body. When that Visible Body teaches it is Christ Who teaches.

Thus only what is done out of this union with Christ in us is the Church, such as teaching on faith or morals by the Magisterium, the sacramental life of the Church, the acts of virtue done in grace by the faithful, above all the lives of heroic sanctity of the Saints. All this is Christ in us who cooperate with Him. The errors in teaching by individuals or sections of the Church, the moral failures, the exercises in poor judgment, the omission of doing good when the circumstances require it, all this is done not by virtue of union with Christ, but by virtue of sinners’ own initiative as first cause themselves, and thus not by the Church. It takes divine faith that the Church is this Great Mystery of union between Christ and His Body to see this; a purely sociological approach misses this entirely as does an historical/scientific approach without faith.

To repeat: The Church is Christ extended. One can not speak of the Church in simply a material sense as an organization as sociologists do. We are not the Church so much as Christ is the Church. He is the Temple in His own personal Body. Qualitatively in Him personally is the fullness; by incorporation into Him we participate in this fullness His personal Humanity has. Whatever He unites to Himself is the Mystery of the Church. Now He united Himself visible with the apostolic community at Pentecost never to be separated from that historical community.

When man was reconciled to God by and in His Son the Catholic Church, the Incarnation extended in time and place, became the means by which humanity could enter into the New Covenant in the Blood of Christ. Through the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ, God dispenses the Grace (Divine Life) - especially through the sacramental life - to bring all people to Himself. The Church in its essence (Christ) is holy, but individual members can be, and often are, sinful, even dreadfully so. Yet God is always faithful and so, just as He did not abandon His Chosen (Holy) People the Jews, He will not abandon His Holy Church which is the Body of Christ, His Son, from Whom all holiness springs.

Now, of course, I have no expectation that you will understand this given your departure from Christ’s Church and having ensconced yourself here as the critic du jour in hopes of infecting others with your sickness.


#18

We don’t–that’s a straw man construction of your own (or your current sect’s or pastor’s) making.

The Church is ONLY “infallible” in the teaching of the Gospel, in matters of faith and morals, when it definitively states it is doing so–by proclamation of Ecumenical Council ratified by a reigning Pontiff or by ex cathedra proclamation by a reigning Pontiff.

Popes, bishops, and priests are human beings and not immune from sinning.

The Church as the institution founded by Christ is only protected from definitively teaching error in faith and morals–NOT in members failing to live up to those morals.


#19

I was going to quote the Bible about the Advocate protecting the Church from error, but I decided that OTP might have a point about rot.

The Bible- rot
Holy Eucharist-rot
Trinity-rot
Satan-rot
Holy martyrs and saints-rot
Baptism-rot

YAY I’m free from rot! I can do anything I want now that I’m free from that purveyor of rot.


#20

Clearly written by infallible men, sometimes centuries after the events happened…I mean, you don’t have to look too far to see some things that don’t make a lot of sense if we are supposed to believe they are perfect…

Noah, lived until he was 892. That’s clearly a falsehood, ridiculous, or simply doesn’t matter, as we look at the intent of the meaning and ignore the error.

Everything in the Bible is true, and some of it even happened!


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