Discussions with a Muslim


#1

I’m having a chat with some Muslim’s at the mo and wondered if you chaps could help me out with some stuff?

It is fascinating discussing religion with Muslims I have found, they have really unusual attacks. One I have encountered is that the Bible is inaccurate, the example I have been given is : -

**40th descendent of Abraham. **MATTHEW: 1.1 / 16
**55th descendent of Abraham. **LUKE 3:23 / 28

Apparently this is a contradiction…Can you assist gentle folk?
:slight_smile:


#2

[quote=FightingFat]I’m having a chat with some Muslim’s at the mo and wondered if you chaps could help me out with some stuff?

It is fascinating discussing religion with Muslims I have found, they have really unusual attacks. One I have encountered is that the Bible is inaccurate, the example I have been given is : -

**40th descendent of Abraham. **MATTHEW: 1.1 / 16
**55th descendent of Abraham. **LUKE 3:23 / 28

Apparently this is a contradiction…Can you assist gentle folk?
:slight_smile:
[/quote]

Hey FF, Osu!
Aren’t those the two different geneoligies of Jesus? One down Joseph’s side of the family and the other Marys’s?
That would explain it…


#3

[quote=FightingFat]…Apparently this is a contradiction…Can you assist gentle folk?:slight_smile:
[/quote]

since God’s word is truth, it cannot contradict itself.
i can’t give concrete support to this statement, but i understand the genealogies were not understood to be a ‘complete’ rather a ‘sufficient’ tracking of J’s heritage. don’t find a direct comment in the CCC, i’ll check the catechism of Trent tonight to see if it comments on this.
i’d also suggest that you pray to Our Lady for assitance in discussing things with your Muslim friend. there are facsinating connections between them and her. Fulton Sheen thinks (thought) she’ll be the means for their entry into the church. (just to start, Fatima was the name of Mohammed’s daughter.)

Christ is risen!!


#4

It seems to me that the two writers of the Gospel were interested in displaying the descendants with different intentions.

Matthew was trying to show a 14 generation concept from major era to major era, as follows.
Matthew 1:17 :"[font=Verdana]So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations."[/font]
[font=Verdana][/font]
[font=Verdana]Luke was not interested in composing a 14 generation concept. Rather a strict son of, son of lineage.[/font]

As a result Matthew probably omitted a few names, in order to keep the concept going. For instance, perhaps a short lived father, with a long lived son might constitute one generation.

Calvin


#5

Matthew traces Jesus geneology from Abraham to Jesus. Matthew was writing to the Jews to show Jesus as the fufillment of the Messiah. Matthew is emphasizing Jesus bond with the people of Isreal.

Luke traces Jesus geneology all the way back to Adam. Luke was himself a gentile who travelled with Paul who preached to the gentiles. Tracing the geneology back to Adam shows God’s providence for all people.

The commentary in my bible says: “Matthew is concerned with fourteen generations, probably because fourteen is the numerical value of the Hebrew letters forming the name of David.”

Biblical writers were not overly concerned about accurate historical reporting. They were more concerned about the message and the people understanding the message. Seems to me that Matthew “left out” a few generations to make a point to the readers at the time who were Hebrews and would understand the symbolic meaning.


#6

OK, here’s the full thing-

1A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham:
2Abraham was the father of Isaac,
Isaac the father of Jacob,
Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,
3Judah the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar,
Perez the father of Hezron,
Hezron the father of Ram,
4Ram the father of Amminadab,
Amminadab the father of Nahshon,
Nahshon the father of Salmon,
5Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab,
Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth,
Obed the father of Jesse,
6and Jesse the father of King David.
David was the father of Solomon, whose mother had been Uriah’s wife,
7Solomon the father of Rehoboam,
Rehoboam the father of Abijah,
Abijah the father of Asa,
8Asa the father of Jehoshaphat,
Jehoshaphat the father of Jehoram,
Jehoram the father of Uzziah,
9Uzziah the father of Jotham,
Jotham the father of Ahaz,
Ahaz the father of Hezekiah,
10Hezekiah the father of Manasseh,
Manasseh the father of Amon,
Amon the father of Josiah,
11and Josiah the father of Jeconiah[a] and his brothers at the time of the exile to Babylon.
12After the exile to Babylon:
Jeconiah was the father of Shealtiel,
Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel,
13Zerubbabel the father of Abiud,
Abiud the father of Eliakim,
Eliakim the father of Azor,
14Azor the father of Zadok,
Zadok the father of Akim,
Akim the father of Eliud,
15Eliud the father of Eleazar,
Eleazar the father of Matthan,
Matthan the father of Jacob,
16and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
This quote shows 40th descendant!!

& the second quote:
Luke 3:23-34
23Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph,
the son of Heli,
24the son of Matthat,
the son of Levi,
the son of Melki,
the son of Jannai,
the son of Joseph,
25the son of Mattathias,
the son of Amos,
the son of Nahum,
the son of Esli,
the son of Naggai,
26the son of Maath,
the son of Mattathias,
the son of Semein,
the son of Josech,
the son of Joda,
27the son of Joanan,
the son of Rhesa,
the son of Zerubbabel,
the son of Shealtiel,
the son of Neri,
28the son of Melki,
the son of Addi,
the son of Cosam,
the son of Elmadam,
the son of Er,
29the son of Joshua,
the son of Eliezer,
the son of Jorim,
the son of Matthat,
the son of Levi,
30the son of Simeon,
the son of Judah,
the son of Joseph,
the son of Jonam,
the son of Eliakim,
31the son of Melea,
the son of Menna,
the son of Mattatha,
the son of Nathan,
the son of David,
32the son of Jesse,
the son of Obed,
the son of Boaz,
the son of Salmon,
[a] the son of Nahshon,
33the son of Amminadab,
the son of Ram,
the son of Hezron,
the son of Perez,
the son of Judah,
34the son of Jacob,
the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham

This shows 55 descendants

I think saying ‘it doesn’t matter’ isn;t going to get me out of this one!


#7

OK - I haven’t read this yet but its by Jimmy Akin, so I trust it :yup:

catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9712chap.asp


#8

[quote=FightingFat]I’m having a chat with some Muslim’s at the mo and wondered if you chaps could help me out with some stuff?

It is fascinating discussing religion with Muslims I have found, they have really unusual attacks. One I have encountered is that the Bible is inaccurate, the example I have been given is : -

**40th descendent of Abraham. **MATTHEW: 1.1 / 16
**55th descendent of Abraham. **LUKE 3:23 / 28

Apparently this is a contradiction…Can you assist gentle folk?
:slight_smile:
[/quote]

I would dialogue respectfully, but I would avoid engaging in a theological jousting match. Moslems have profound reasons for believing as they do. Did you know that they believe that Christ is coming again to “judge” his people, and that there will be an actual figure in the end times known as the “Antichrist?” Heck, many Catholics don’t even believe this truth. They also believe that Jesus was a holy prophet and say “peace be upon him” everytime his name is mentioned. Contrast this with profaning his name that many Catholics regularly practice.

They also hold that Jesus (Issa) was born of a virgin (Miryam) and did not have a human father.

Moslems are not our enemies. They are our friends. Together with our Jewish brothers and sisters, we are people of the Book, and fellow children of Abraham.

I love Moslems. Ask the intercession of Saint Francis of Assisi to deepen our love and concern as Catholic Christians for our Moslem neigbors.


#9

I think the Akin link provided covers it pretty well.
Even IF THERE WERE a math discrepency, would it matter? I mean, doesn’t one Gospel refer to the Sermon on the Mount and another the Sermon on the Plain when describing the same event? I could be wrong.
Or Genesis… this could get sticky and I want your thread to stay on track, but … Seven days? Maybe. Maybe not. But does it matter? The point – the inerrent point – is that God is the Creator. To me, that’s the fundamental truth that God wants to impart through Genesis. Just my opinion, though.

Jim


#10

[quote=4 marks]I would dialogue respectfully, but I would avoid engaging in a theological jousting match. Moslems have profound reasons for believing as they do. Did you know that they believe that Christ is coming again to “judge” his people, and that there will be an actual figure in the end times known as the “Antichrist?” Heck, many Catholics don’t even believe this truth. They also believe that Jesus was a holy prophet and say “peace be upon him” everytime his name is mentioned. Contrast this with profaning his name that many Catholics regularly practice.

They also hold that Jesus (Issa) was born of a virgin (Miryam) and did not have a human father.

Moslems are not our enemies. They are our friends. Together with our Jewish brothers and sisters, we are people of the Book, and fellow children of Abraham.

I love Moslems. Ask the intercession of Saint Francis of Assisi to deepen our love and concern as Catholic Christians for our Moslem neigbors.
[/quote]

It’s cool! I am of the same mind! I have been asked into the dicussion by a young Catholic who is worried he was not giving a good account of his faith, God love him. To be honest they’re a lot more polite than some of the people on here are to non Catholics who post!

I just want to demonstrate that we do have a beautiful and deep rooted faith.

Great help here guys! Thanks!


#11

[quote=4 marks]They also hold that Jesus (Issa) was born of a virgin (Miryam) and did not have a human father.
[/quote]

They deny He is Son of God though.

Moslems are not our enemies. They are our friends. Together with our Jewish brothers and sisters, we are people of the Book, and fellow children of Abraham.

While we must not seek to hate Muslims, we need also to be wary. They are not Christians, they deny Jesus is Lord, and their aim is the abolition of Christianity. If a muslim converts to Christianity, the brotherhood ends, and the punishment is death.

The disputants in the original post have clearly been given “proof texts” to use in converting Christians. Try telling a muslim their scriptures are false, and see what happens. I think Salman Rushdie was the last one to do that.

I love Moslems. Ask the intercession of Saint Francis of Assisi to deepen our love and concern as Catholic Christians for our Moslem neigbors.

Saint Francis wanted to convert them to Christianity, not merge faiths.


#12

[quote=4 marks]I love Moslems.
[/quote]

If you love them so much, you should start calling them Muslims, because Moslems is not their proper name, and many find it very insulting.


#13

Matthew has Joseph’s geneology, Luke has Mary’s.
I know that Luke has Joseph’s name; remember that family relationships were more loosely described then. (Look at the references to the “brothers” of Jesus!). Also, I would point out as someone else has said, that not every single person’s name is in the geneology…
And don’t underestimate the differences!! There is a surface similarity. There are also a lot of deep, deep differences. Spend a lot of time in prayer for the wisdom you need. I admire deeply your courage & commitment. I will pray for you.
God bless.


#14

Matthew has Joseph’s geneology, Luke has Mary’s.
I know that Luke has Joseph’s name; remember that family relationships were more loosely described then. (Look at the references to the “brothers” of Jesus!).

Yes, that “Brothers of Jesus” tract on Catholic Answers is excellent. I just read it the other night, and should have recalled it for Fatty. Read it to share with your Muslim friend, as well as Prots that question our faith.

Jim


#15

[quote=FightingFat]I’m having a chat with some Muslim’s at the mo and wondered if you chaps could help me out with some stuff?

It is fascinating discussing religion with Muslims I have found, they have really unusual attacks. One I have encountered is that the Bible is inaccurate, the example I have been given is : -

**40th descendent of Abraham. **MATTHEW: 1.1 / 16
**55th descendent of Abraham. **LUKE 3:23 / 28

Apparently this is a contradiction…Can you assist gentle folk?
:slight_smile:
[/quote]

Hi FightingFat,
Yes , we all have assisted. We dont understand.
Tell our muslim friends that the bible is full of apparent contradiction because God is almighty and we are uncomprehending. We only understand as and when the truth is revealed to us.
I dont have any idea how you could convert a muslim who was seeking to convert you. How far would they let you go in attacking the words of their faith. It seems to be a very unbalanced field if the street is not two way.
Set the rules if you can reach agreement otherwise you are on a hiding to nothing.
walk in love
edwinG


#16

[quote=edwinG]Hi FightingFat,
Yes , we all have assisted. We dont understand.
Tell our muslim friends that the bible is full of apparent contradiction because God is almighty and we are uncomprehending. We only understand as and when the truth is revealed to us.
I dont have any idea how you could convert a muslim who was seeking to convert you. How far would they let you go in attacking the words of their faith. It seems to be a very unbalanced field if the street is not two way.
Set the rules if you can reach agreement otherwise you are on a hiding to nothing.
walk in love
edwinG
[/quote]

I disagree. I don’t think it would be possible to convert someone over the internet, I do hope that I can demonstrate some knowledge of my faith and a dedication to it that might help others grow in respect for my beliefs.


#17

Moslems are not our enemies. They are our friends. Together with our Jewish brothers and sisters, we are people of the Book, and fellow children of Abraham.

Nonsense!

The God of Abraham would never have sent an angel to dictate His word which explicitly denied the divinity, death and resurrection of Christ.

The Muslim religion IS anti-Christ. Pure and simple.


#18

[quote=John_19_59]Nonsense!

The God of Abraham would never have sent an angel to dictate His word which explicitly denied the divinity, death and resurrection of Christ.

The Muslim religion IS anti-Christ. Pure and simple.
[/quote]

So what do you think did happen? Does their faith contain no truth? What do you think about what the Catechism has to say about them? How did they receive a faith which in many ways mirrors our own?


#19

How did they receive a faith which in many ways mirrors our own?

…and in many more important ways is the opposite of our own.

How did they receive a faith?

Mohammed claimed the angel gabriel visted him and dictated Gods word to him.

Except it certainly wasn’t anyone to do with our God who visited him!


#20

[quote=John_19_59]…and in many more important ways is the opposite of our own.
[/quote]

So you agree that it shares some elements of our own faith?

[quote=John_19_59]How did they receive a faith?

Mohammed claimed the angel gabriel visted him and dictated Gods word to him.
[/quote]

So what do you think happened?

[quote=John_19_59]Except it certainly wasn’t anyone to do with our God who visited him!
[/quote]

I believe it was someone to do with our God. Who do you think it was then?


DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.