Dispensationalism


#1

Has anyone ever talked to a dispensationalist? How do you combat their views?


#2

There were 4 references in Scripture to Dispensationalism but 22 in regards to Christ's covenant of His Blood.


#3

I am actually refering to a King James only Baptist Dispensationalists. Has anyone spoken with one of these?


#4

I am not very good with terms but because of the Christian book store I work at I may have talked to them but need you to explain a bit more what they say.


#5

[quote="Maryann_C, post:4, topic:282154"]
I am not very good with terms but because of the Christian book store I work at I may have talked to them but need you to explain a bit more what they say.

[/quote]

Dispensationalists believe that the Bible can be basically broken down into anywhere from three to seven periods of history, usually defined by and directly linked to biblical covenants, as a means to define the period of revelation. They tend to have a foundational belief in "progressive revelation". They seem to be very heavy on eschatology, and from them comes most of the familiar phrases they are identified with (rapture, end times, 1000 year reign, Israel, the great tribulation, the antichrist, mark of the beast, etc).

Most of this is based on the writings of John Darby, and sprang about in the mid to late 19th century. Dispensationalism is embraced mostly by fundamentalist, evangelical, "bible-only", non-denoms. Most of the mainline Protestant denominations reject it (or at least claim to), although it does seem to have permeated Protestant denominations to a greater or lesser degree..

My biggest personal problem with it (aside from the association with many of the individual messengers, who come across to me as either abrasive or just a touch "off") is that it seems as if they present the Bible as a giant code, and by decyphering it correctly you can get into heaven.


#6

[quote="peeteyg, post:3, topic:282154"]
I am actually refering to a King James only Baptist Dispensationalists. Has anyone spoken with one of these?

[/quote]

I don't believe that dispensationalism is necessarily linked to KJV only. It just seems that way because usually the denominations that are into dispensational theology just happen to be KJV only as well.


#7

[quote="peeteyg, post:1, topic:282154"]
Has anyone ever talked to a dispensationalist? How do you combat their views?

[/quote]

I would say the easiest way to quote their views is to start with the rapture. I am not aware of ANY belief or teaching in what they term the rapture prior to the 1830s.


#8

As a Catholic, yes on some levels we await Christ's return and the final resurrection.

But how we encounter God in prayer, at Mass, in Scripture....we are living in Christ's kingdom here on earth...where we are not living in linear time, but in the life of Christ.


#9

OK I have come across some of these , infact recently. Some I have come across actually believe that the KJV is THE original version of the Bile and the illogicality of it just smacks me upside the head! So I start by using logic on the KJV argument. By putting a chink in their armour and asking them what version of the KJV they have. That throws most for a loop. When you get the blank stare you say’ well do you have the complete Bible or do you have the 1800s version?’ more blank stares ( by most not all- since the 400th anniversary) then you explain to them that THE original KJV Bible as commissioned by the King himself had ALL the books of the Bible ( some semantics here but leave that for another argument) AND in fact he said that if anyone REMOVED the ‘extra’ books there would be a penalty of DEATH that is how serious it was! So now they are on shaky ground because you have proven that what they believed to be true (perhaps all their lives) is flawed and you haven’t even touched on scripture itself yet!

When people ask me at the store which Bible they should pick I explain that they can go 1 of 3 routes , they can go with the Bible as used in their Church so that when they are looking up verses they read the same, or they can go for an easy to read Bible OR they can get a complete Bible:D naturally they want the complete Bible and then I say well then you only have 2 options a Catholic Bible or the 1611 KJV which we would have to order for you and would be very hard to understand since it is in the original print style. when they don’t want the Catholic Bible I give them the 4 th unmentioned option of purchasing a separate Apocrypha I don’t win all but I plant seeds. If I get argument about the ‘extra’ books and the original language , I explain that isn’t it amazing that the HS knew what he was doing when originally compiling canon of scripture we know this because of what books were found in Hebrew in the Dead sea scrolls that we originally only had in Greek.

I would go for this next based off of the fact that they can not necessarily trust their pastor on the completeness of their KJV Bible. Actually I did a very good protestant women’s video ( don’t let this put you off) study that went through all the different protestant interpretations of the end times per-millenialists etc in a relatively non biased way. She just tried to lay out the facts as people believe it and why. That study was actually one of the turning points that sent me to the Catholic Church because it talked about the keys of authority which of-course I recognized was exactly why Jesus said what he said to Peter. I can highly recommend that you invest in this study (video is really a must) or find a group that is doing it. It is called Daniel by Beth Moore- she is dynamic , fun and on fire. Any soldier has to learn the tactics of their opponent! not that we are at war but you get my point.

Use logic and scripture first , earliest Fathers if they come with well Pastor so and so or Calvin, or whom ever said. Do NOT use the Catechism or word Pope until you have gotten them to realise that where they have their teaching from is man invented and has no authority and they ask you in an attitude of now really seeking the truth “well what does the Catholic Church believe?” .

Remember that all along they are trying to ‘save’ YOU from the ‘Whore of Babylon’ for the salvation of your soul. You may not believe this but they are trying to convert you it is the only reason they are in conversation with you.

Your goal is not to win the argument, it is to show them the sandy foundation they are on so they will seek the rock .


#10

Dispensationism also makes a distinction between Israel and the Church and see them as 2 distinct people of God, each with a different destiny in the future. In fact, that is a hallmark of the dispensational view. Most Lutherans, Reformed, Anglican, etc. reject this view. It is popular amongst Baptists, Pentecostals, and nondenoms. Here is a good response from a Catholic perspective- The Rapture Trap. amazon.com/The-Rapture-Trap-Catholic-Response/dp/0965922820/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1335444647&sr=1-1. And here is one by a Presbyterian, The Last Days Madness. amazon.com/Last-Days-Madness-Obsession-Modern/dp/0915815354/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1335444717&sr=1-1


#11

Dispensationism also makes a distinction between Israel and the Church and see them as 2 distinct people of God, each with a different destiny in the future. In fact, that is a hallmark of the dispensational view. Most Lutherans, Reformed, Anglican, etc. reject this view. It is popular amongst Baptists, Pentecostals, and nondenoms. Here is a good response from a Catholic perspective- The Rapture Trap. amazon.com/The-Rapture-Trap-Catholic-Response/dp/0965922820/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1335444647&sr=1-1. And here is one by a Presbyterian, The Last Days Madness. amazon.com/Last-Days-Madness-Obsession-Modern/dp/0915815354/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1335444717&sr=1-1


#12

[quote="peeteyg, post:1, topic:282154"]
Has anyone ever talked to a dispensationalist? How do you combat their views?

[/quote]

Peet,

The best resources are the following...

Familiarize with all the Eschatologic views.

Historical Premillianism
Amellinialism
Post Millinialism
Modern day Premillinialism

Next get hold of David Chilton...Days of Vengance explaining the Reformed Postmillinial view..found here

preteristarchive.com/Books/1987_chilton_days-of-vengeance.html

Next get hold of Gestner..."Rightly dividing the word of Truth" a Reformed opposition to the Dispenationalist.

Understand Amellinialism

If you have a handle on this you can then explain that John Nelson Darby invented this belief...with these other points of view you can explain why it is not something accepted by all Christians...to know this is to engage someone that has no knowledge to someone that has knowledge and that is the only way to engage the Dispensationalist...


#13

[quote="peeteyg, post:1, topic:282154"]
Has anyone ever talked to a dispensationalist? How do you combat their views?

[/quote]

The best way to combat their views is simply to ask them questions they are unable to answer.

Let's start with Daniel Chapter nine (KJV) (the foundation of dispensationalist theology).

24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

?

27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

1. Dispys say that there is a 'church age gap' between verse 26 and 27.
Where is the gap? IN THE TEXT.
It's not there.

2. Dispys say that the 'prince that shall come' in verse 26 is different than 'Messiah the Prince' of verse 25.
How do you know it is speaking of two different people from a simple reading of the text? Why would Daniel suddenly change his mind and start talking about a different person? How does this make logical and grammanical sense? Please find it IN THE TEXT.
It is an assumption. Daniel did not change the subject, he is still talking about the same Person. To 'assume' makes no grammanical or logical sense. It cannot be drawn out of the text.
Also:

3.Please find ANY referance of the 'rapture' in Scripture or in church history prior to the 19th century.
One cannot.

4. Dispys (like Harold Wilmington of Libery University) say that during the millenniam, resurrected people and non-resurrected people with sin natures will live side by side on the earth.
PLEASE, find this ANYWHERE in the Bible.
One cannot.

5. Find 'seven year tribulation' in the Bible.
One cannot.

6. Find 'revived Roman Empire' anywhere in the Bible.
One cannot.

7. Please find anywhere in the Bible that says the Jews will return to the land in 1948.
One cannot.


#14

[quote="cajunhillbilly, post:10, topic:282154"]
Dispensationism also makes a distinction between Israel and the Church and see them as 2 distinct people of God, each with a different destiny in the future. In fact, that is a hallmark of the dispensational view. Most Lutherans, Reformed, Anglican, etc. reject this view. It is popular amongst Baptists, Pentecostals, and nondenoms. Here is a good response from a Catholic perspective- The Rapture Trap. amazon.com/The-Rapture-Trap-Catholic-Response/dp/0965922820/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1335444647&sr=1-1. And here is one by a Presbyterian, The Last Days Madness. amazon.com/Last-Days-Madness-Obsession-Modern/dp/0915815354/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1335444717&sr=1-1

[/quote]

I had the 'Last Days Madness" book at one point. I would recomend that one myself. Although if I remember he is a rather extreme Preterist.


#15

[quote="JustaServant, post:14, topic:282154"]
I had the 'Last Days Madness" book at one point. I would recomend that one myself. Although if I remember he is a rather extreme Preterist.

[/quote]

Yes he is pretreist. I am a partial preterist myself, though not an extreme one. I was just pointing out two books that show, from both Catholic and Protestant sides, that dispensationism is not the only view possible. Amillenialism is actually the historic position of Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican and Reformed churches. As mentioned above, dispensationalism was not invented until the 1800s.


#16

Peete, With all due respect to all me learned friends (unless you are talking to someone equally as learned) if you take the tack they recommend you will need a doctorate on dispens,,, gymnastics before you can talk to anyone who believes this.
I do like the method of 'show me in the Bible specifically' but then you have to be ready with knowledge of how to counter this when they can. So again, if you can show them that the authority on which they believe their translation 'is THE Bible', their only trusted translation, is at best not as reliable as they thought and infact may have erred from the sainted KJ, then you can shake the sands they stand on and you have laid the seeds to have a rational conversation. Just MHO and experience as to how to eat this elephant.:D


#17

[quote="Maryann_C, post:16, topic:282154"]
I do like the method of 'show me in the Bible specifically' but then you have to be ready with knowledge of how to counter this when they can.

[/quote]

Take it from a former Baptist pastor, they can't. When asked the above questions they will:
1. Say the verse or chapter implies the point.
2. Take other verses out of context.
3. Implode.
I once asked a BJU grad to explain how the 'prince that shall come' in Daniel verse 26 is different than 'Messiah the Prince' of verse 25.
He said, as God is my witness, 'prince' in verse 26 is capitalized, while in verse 25 it wasn't.
The Hebrew langange has no upper or lower case letters.
Heaven be praised this guy is no longer in the ministry.


#18

[quote="JustaServant, post:17, topic:282154"]
Take it from a former Baptist pastor, they can't. When asked the above questions they will:
1. Say the verse or chapter implies the point.
2. Take other verses out of context.
3. Implode.
I once asked a BJU grad to explain how the 'prince that shall come' in Daniel verse 26 is different than 'Messiah the Prince' of verse 25.
He said, as God is my witness, 'prince' in verse 26 is capitalized, while in verse 25 it wasn't.
The Hebrew langange has no upper or lower case letters.
Heaven be praised this guy is no longer in the ministry.

[/quote]

wow. That would be funny if not so tragic


#19

[quote="cajunhillbilly, post:18, topic:282154"]
wow. That would be funny if not so tragic

[/quote]

The problem with Dispensationalism is they use the opposite of exegesis (to draw out) which is eisegesis (to draw in).
An eisegetic interpreter of Scripture is "importing" his or her own purely subjective interpretations in to the text, unsupported by the text itself.
If one truly beleives in "Scripture alone", Dispensationalism falls apart. Most Dispys would claim SA, but fail to use it when confronted with thier interpretation of those verses.
Some of the best critiques of Dispy theology comes out of Reformed Protestantism.


#20

[quote="JustaServant, post:19, topic:282154"]
The problem with Dispensationalism is they use the opposite of exegesis (to draw out) which is eisegesis (to draw in).
An eisegetic interpreter of Scripture is "importing" his or her own purely subjective interpretations in to the text, unsupported by the text itself.
If one truly beleives in "Scripture alone", Dispensationalism falls apart. Most Dispys would claim SA, but fail to use it when confronted with thier interpretation of those verses.
Some of the best critiques of Dispy theology comes out of Reformed Protestantism.

[/quote]

Yes it does. Most of my reasons for rejecting this view is based on books I have read by Reformed theologians. I am currently reading Rapture Trap by a Catholic. Where in West Virginia do you live? I grew up in Morgantown.


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