Dispensationalist inconsistincies with and


#1

what are called "anti-Christian" activities.

christianbeliefs.org/articles/disp&jews.html

NOTE: the following article is presented to show the gross anti-Christian activities of some prominent New Evangelical Dispensationalists*.

The Sacramento meeting featured the presentation of an "Evangelical Christian Declaration of Support for Israel and the American Jewish Community."

The first paragraph of the Declaration summarizes its purpose as follows:

We are committed to the security of Israel. We believe that the Holy Land is the inalienable possession of the Jewish people; that the promises made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob have never been abrogated; and that the establishment of modern Israel is an undeniable fulfillment of Biblical prophecy, the herald of the coming Messiah [Emphasis added - aal]. The rebirth of Israel points to God’s faithfulness and to the sustaining might which undergirds all of His promises.

Evangelical Free Churches are dispensational. Dispensationalists in their activity approach Judaism not as Judaism but a means to an end. This article discusses what is called "anti-Christian" activity.

It is my opinion that although Dispensationalist Christians say they love the Jewish people it is with the intent other than just to love them as people but a means to an end....thoughts.


#2

[quote="CopticChristian, post:1, topic:283086"]
what are called "anti-Christian" activities.

christianbeliefs.org/articles/disp&jews.html

NOTE: the following article is presented to show the gross anti-Christian activities of some prominent New Evangelical Dispensationalists*.

Evangelical Free Churches are dispensational. Dispensationalists in their activity approach Judaism not as Judaism but a means to an end. This article discusses what is called "anti-Christian" activity.

It is my opinion that although Dispensationalist Christians say they love the Jewish people it is with the intent other than just to love them as people but a means to an end....thoughts.

[/quote]

Dispensationalism is a pretty broad brush, and since its inception in the 1800s, it has permeated a great deal of Protestant theology to the point that it is almost so subtle as to go unnoticed in the more mainline and traditional Protestant denominations. Certain elements of dispensational theology have almost become foundational doctrine; it isn't talked about because it has become the accepted "starting point". I don't know that these groups would be guilty of such.

I can't speak to the Evangelical Free Churches, because I am not familiar with their traditions. Just given their language in regard to Israel, I think it is a safe assumption that they are overt in their theology, and I do know that some of the more blatant dispensational believers do view Israel as a means to the end times. I know there are fundamentalists who have spoken of rebuilding the Temple in Jerusalem specifically so as to fulfill Biblical prophecy so that it would catalyze the second coming.

Those types seem very formulaic, and speak with absolute certitude that rebuilding the Temple would equal the second coming in the same way that a math teacher will tell someone that 1 + 1=2. I don't discount this group to be of that type.


#3

I think it is also important to remember that there is a very clear distinction in dispy theology between Israel and the church. Resultant, they believe that God has very different plans for the two.

I don’t know that it would be fair to say they are trying to use Israel as a means to an end, because they don’t view things that way. Since they believe that in the end times God will fulfill His promises (as prophesied) to Israel, while simultaneously fulfilling His promises to the church, and most believe that Israel will ultimately end up embracing Jesus as the Messiah after God shows that He has fulfilled His promises to them as they have been expecting according to Old Testament prophecy.


#4

[quote="joshua_b, post:2, topic:283086"]
Dispensationalism is a pretty broad brush, and since its inception in the 1800s, it has permeated a great deal of Protestant theology to the point that it is almost so subtle as to go unnoticed in the more mainline and traditional Protestant denominations. Certain elements of dispensational theology have almost become foundational doctrine; it isn't talked about because it has become the accepted "starting point". I don't know that these groups would be guilty of such.

I can't speak to the Evangelical Free Churches, because I am not familiar with their traditions. Just given their language in regard to Israel, I think it is a safe assumption that they are overt in their theology, and I do know that some of the more blatant dispensational believers do view Israel as a means to the end times. I know there are fundamentalists who have spoken of rebuilding the Temple in Jerusalem specifically so as to fulfill Biblical prophecy so that it would catalyze the second coming.

Those types seem very formulaic, and speak with absolute certitude that rebuilding the Temple would equal the second coming in the same way that a math teacher will tell someone that 1 + 1=2. I don't discount this group to be of that type.

[/quote]

Josh,

This is the Evangelical Free Church statement of Faith. It is interesting in that the Evangelical Free Church sprang from Lutheran roots.

efca.org/about-efca/statement-faith

Christ’s Return
9. We believe in the personal, bodily and premillennial return of our Lord Jesus Christ. The coming of Christ, at a time known only to God, demands constant expectancy and, as our blessed hope, motivates the believer to godly living, sacrificial service and energetic mission.


#5

Josh,

That is only if you believe that the dirt in the middle east that is called Israel formed by the United Nations and British Evangelicals is Israel or that Israel is people and Israel is the Church.


#6

[quote="CopticChristian, post:1, topic:283086"]
what are called "anti-Christian" activities.

christianbeliefs.org/articles/disp&jews.html

NOTE: the following article is presented to show the gross anti-Christian activities of some prominent New Evangelical Dispensationalists*.

Evangelical Free Churches are dispensational. Dispensationalists in their activity approach Judaism not as Judaism but a means to an end. This article discusses what is called "anti-Christian" activity.

It is my opinion that although Dispensationalist Christians say they love the Jewish people it is with the intent other than just to love them as people but a means to an end....thoughts.

[/quote]

Dispensationalism in its strict form has different ways of salvation for different peoples in different times. But from the time when God gave the first promise of the Savior in the Garden of Eden until the time of Christ's Second Coming, there is only one way of salvation: faith in the Savior (see Romans 4). Throughout the time of the Old Testament, people received more detailed knowledge about the coming of the Savior, but there was no difference in the way of salvation.

Today there is considerable disagreement among dispensationalists. Some have gone so far as to say that classic dispensationalism like that of the Scofield Bible is dying out. Classic dispensationalism makes a sharp distinction between God's dealings with Israel and the church, whereas Scripture teaches that Christ has made the two one (Ephesians 2:11-18). Classic dispensationalism, also, is millennial. It sees prophecy as being fulfilled during the millennium rather than in the church. Such passages as Acts 15:14-18 make it clear that prophecy is being fulfilled in the present time.

"Progressive" or "revised" dispensationalism is lessening the distinction made by the classic view between Israel and the church, but it still retains millennialism.

Lutheran roots? This is odd because Lutherans have rejected this idea since the earliest days of the Reformation. The Augsburg Confession Article XVII: Of Christ's Return to Judgment.

1] Also they teach that at the Consummation of the World Christ will appear for judgment, and 2] will raise up all the dead; He will give to the godly and elect eternal life and everlasting joys, 3] but ungodly men and the devils He will condemn to be tormented without end.

4] They condemn the Anabaptists, who think that there will be an end to the punishments of condemned men and devils.

5] *They condemn also others who are now spreading certain Jewish opinions, that before the resurrection of the dead the godly shall take possession of the kingdom of the world, the ungodly being everywhere suppressed. *


#7

[quote="CopticChristian, post:5, topic:283086"]
Josh,

That is only if you believe that the dirt in the middle east that is called Israel formed by the United Nations and British Evangelicals is Israel or that Israel is people and Israel is the Church.

[/quote]

Well on the one hand we have the unbroken connection of the Jewish people to our land for over 3,500 years and on the other hand we have those who spread lies about that connection.

So for those who wish to know here are two videos:

The first is a recent video of a Hamas leader talking about the history of those who now seek to define themselves as Palestinian Arabs and where they come from.

youtube.com/watch?v=Ekhdt0VQYjo

The second deals with subject matter that is no doubt familiar to Christians:

youtube.com/watch?v=ydwxy9yqhzM

I think they sum up the arguments for and against pretty well.


#8

Well on the one hand we have the unbroken connection of the Jewish people to our land for over 3,500 years and on the other hand we have those who spread lies about that connection.

So for those who wish to know here are two videos:

The first is a recent video of a Hamas leader talking about the history of those who now seek to define themselves as Palestinian Arabs and where they come from.

youtube.com/watch?v=Ekhdt0VQYjo

The second deals with subject matter that is no doubt familiar to Christians:

youtube.com/watch?v=ydwxy9yqhzM

I think they sum up the arguments for and against pretty well.

However there is always this final solution:

youtube.com/watch?v=jJuWiwNOjsU


#9

[quote="chosen_people, post:8, topic:283086"]
Well on the one hand we have the unbroken connection of the Jewish people to our land for over 3,500 years and on the other hand we have those who spread lies about that connection.

So for those who wish to know here are two videos:

The first is a recent video of a Hamas leader talking about the history of those who now seek to define themselves as Palestinian Arabs and where they come from.

youtube.com/watch?v=Ekhdt0VQYjo

The second deals with subject matter that is no doubt familiar to Christians:

youtube.com/watch?v=ydwxy9yqhzM

I think they sum up the arguments for and against pretty well.

However there is always this final solution:

youtube.com/watch?v=jJuWiwNOjsU

[/quote]

Chosen,

There is confusion as to who is Israel and what is Judaism. Israel was the person, later the tribe and later the Norhtern Kingdom. Judah was a tribe and later the Southern Kingdom and Judaism dates to Ezrah and Nehemiah and not to be equated with Israel as either a tribe or land.

There is no such thing as a claim to land that was lost. This is the notion that it was ours, we lost it, now give it back. So we are back to the argument that we have no homeland..well neither do the american indians or many other peoples. Are we going to go back and correct all the lost lands for peoples in the past that lost their land for whatever reason. If we honor this as a reason for a homeland then why stop here. The Kingdom of Israel and Judah were destroyed and lost what was theirs. That is fact and that is history. Shall we restore the British Empire and it's prior holdings, what about Portugal a former world power or maybe Greece....where do you stop and why. Get over the reality of the land that was lost.

Your videos are biased towards a belief that Israel/the dirt is the Biblical representative. This is not a universal belief. The first video relates history...so we are all Children of Adam..who cares what the Palestinian roots are only you. The Christian support is Protestant support and for that you have a bias support. The last solution is an all or nothing view.

Your view is they don't belong there, the Bible says Jews do and there is this solution. No. That is your view no offering any other solution and to be honest that has nothing to do with what Dispensationalist are doing as it regards their activity that is designated as anti-Christian in this article. You interpose a point of view that is a distraction.


#10

Coptic, Coptic, Coptic,

I wouldn’t assume that all Dispensationalists are using the Jewish people as a means to an end; and I’m not quite sure why you think they are anti-Christian. Maybe I am misunderstanding their views.

I would say that there are some common threads found in the words of Pope John Paul II in Nostra Aetate:

**Nostra Aetate
Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions
(October 28 1965)
**
. . . .4. Sounding the depths of the mystery which is the Church, this sacred Council remembers the spiritual ties which link the people of the New Covenant to the stock of Abraham.

The Church of Christ acknowledges that in God’s plan of salvation the beginning of her faith and election is to be found in the patriarchs. Moses and the prophets. She professes that all Christ’s faithful, who as men of faith are sons of Abraham (cf. Gal. 3:7), are included in the same patriarch’s call and that the salvation of the Church is mystically prefigured in the exodus of God’s chosen people from the land of bondage

On this account the Church cannot forget that she received the revelation of the Old Testament by way of that people with whom God in his inexpressible mercy established the ancient covenant. Nor can she forget that she draws nourishment from that good olive tree onto which the wild olive branches of the Gentiles have been grafted (cf. Rom. 11:1724). The Church believes that Christ who is our peace has through his cross reconciled Jews and Gentiles and made them one in himself (cf. Eph. 2:1416).

Likewise, the Church keeps ever before her mind the words of the apostle Paul about his kinsmen: “they are Israelites, and to them belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race according to the flesh, is the Christ” (Rom. 9:4*5), the son of the virgin Mary. She is mindful, moreover, that the apostles, the pillars on which the Church stands, are of Jewish descent, as are many of those early disciples who proclaimed the Gospel of Christ to the world.

Link: jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/Nostra_Aetate.html
(I used this link to a Jewish site, because you can also see the Jewish response to the efforts of Pope John Paul II: Link: jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/johnpaul.html

Does the Catholic Church hold that God abandoned His Covenant with Israel and His promise to save Israel?

Isaiah 45:

17 But Israel is saved by the Lord
with everlasting salvation;
you shall not be put to shame or confounded
to all eternity.

I’m confused???

pen


#11

[quote="CopticChristian, post:1, topic:283086"]
what are called "anti-Christian" activities.

christianbeliefs.org/articles/disp&jews.html

NOTE: the following article is presented to show the gross anti-Christian activities of some prominent New Evangelical Dispensationalists*.

Evangelical Free Churches are dispensational. Dispensationalists in their activity approach Judaism not as Judaism but a means to an end. This article discusses what is called "anti-Christian" activity.

It is my opinion that although Dispensationalist Christians say they love the Jewish people it is with the intent other than just to love them as people but a means to an end....thoughts.

[/quote]

Also, the article you quoted comes from a website that also says,

"The Lord’s Supper, baptism, sacraments, morality, or good deeds cannot take the place of your paying the penalty for your sins. The Lord’s Supper is simply A REMEMBRANCE and not a "saving" rite. Nor can a solemn, sacred ceremony whereby believers REMEMBER the death of Jesus Christ until He returns, save you [see 1st Corinthians 11:23-26]. Baptism, likewise, is simply a picture of the believer’s identification with Christ by faith alone [see Romans 6:1-11]."
christianbeliefs.org/articles/cnbchsav.html

pen


#12

Pen Name,

I am just a reporter and a discussion generator. The author’s point of view is that the dispensationalists are anti-Christian. Dispensationalism is a theologic point of view. Evangelicals are divided as Covenant or Dispensational believing. Dispensationalism emanated from Protestant thought in Ireland and has been propogated through Protestandom and varies in its presentation…there are different types explained here…

withchrist.org/mjs/missing.htm

I find the whole notion of dispensationalism antithetical to reality and in particularly history of Christian thought. It is a recently invented and recently spread heresy of a heresy in my opinion that uses the notion of DIRT as the people of God. That is my opinion shared with many others.


#13

[quote="Anna_Scott, post:11, topic:283086"]
Also, the article you quoted comes from a website that also says,

"The Lord’s Supper, baptism, sacraments, morality, or good deeds cannot take the place of your paying the penalty for your sins. The Lord’s Supper is simply A REMEMBRANCE and not a "saving" rite. Nor can a solemn, sacred ceremony whereby believers REMEMBER the death of Jesus Christ until He returns, save you [see 1st Corinthians 11:23-26]. Baptism, likewise, is simply a picture of the believer’s identification with Christ by faith alone [see Romans 6:1-11]."
christianbeliefs.org/articles/cnbchsav.html

pen

[/quote]

Pen Name,

Israel is a people. Jews are from the tribe of Judah. Judah was the southern kingdom that split from Israel the Northern Kingdom. All of this happened before the Jews/Judaism surfaced, ie Ezra Nehemia. What was the purpose of the chosen? The purpose was to be an older brother/sister to teach the nations about God....they failed...they lost their land....the reason? I believe to show that the Kingdom is not of this earth...cling to the earth...no the Kingdom is like this and then follow the parables....and now the real Israel, the true Israel, the People, the people of God is the Church whereby all Christians are to do what....teach the other nations about God...and the Kingdom is not of this earth...so there is no land to lose...just your eternal soul.....Burnt offerings I want not....I WANT YOU....and you can imagine the guy in the american flag with a top hat pointing at you except this is the big Guy...saying, cmon down....I created this earth...and this is not your eternal home....from dirt you came and to dirt you shall return until you return to ME...thus sayest the Lord...amen, do I hear an amen????:)

In the mean time the dispensationalists and all the other whackos will be blowing people up over land believing that the Bible has something to do with it. Israel, the land, the people denies what Exodus 19 demands....

5Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Did they obey? Did they keep the Covenant? Whose earth is it? Are they a kingdom of Priests and a Holy Nation...this piece of Dirt the dispensationilsts call Israel?

Read the song of Moses and the last words of Joshua..pretty much what Moses said..

19And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. 20If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good. 21And the people said unto Joshua, Nay; but we will serve the LORD. 22And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses. 23Now therefore put away, said he, the strange gods which are among you, and incline your heart unto the LORD God of Israel. 24And the people said unto Joshua, The LORD our God will we serve, and his voice will we obey. 25So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and set them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem. 26And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God, and took a great stone, and set it up there under an oak, that was by the sanctuary of the LORD. 27And Joshua said unto all the people, Behold, this stone shall be a witness unto us; for it hath heard all the words of the LORD which he spake unto us: it shall be therefore a witness unto you, lest ye deny your God. 28So Joshua let the people depart, every man unto his inheritance.

And what did the Northern Kingdom of Israel with Samaria as its capitol.do?...when Jesus met the Samaritan woman...he told her you worship what you do not know...because they did not worship in the temple...my father's house...did they Obey? this...Israel...these people...NO. They lost what was promised because they could not keep the Covenant....and if you read Exodus and Joshua it is not like they were not warned...to establish the land of Israel based on the Bible is to say that God did not know what He was doing when they lost it...who then is obeying God and what the Bible says?


#14

[quote="CopticChristian, post:1, topic:283086"]
what are called "anti-Christian" activities.

christianbeliefs.org/articles/disp&jews.html

NOTE: the following article is presented to show the gross anti-Christian activities of some prominent New Evangelical Dispensationalists*.

Evangelical Free Churches are dispensational. Dispensationalists in their activity approach Judaism not as Judaism but a means to an end. This article discusses what is called "anti-Christian" activity.

It is my opinion that although Dispensationalist Christians say they love the Jewish people it is with the intent other than just to love them as people but a means to an end....thoughts.

[/quote]

Coptic---

You posted a website which has an article which it presents to show "gross anti-Christian tendencies". I didn't see anything anti-Christian in the article. Do you?

What is the evidence for your opinion that you stated in the last sentence I quoted here? I don't share your opinion at all, but it's you who made the uncharitable charge so the burden of evidence lies with you. You covered a broad group of people in saying "although Dispensationalists Christians say they love the Jewish people...." so to be fair I think your evidence needs to come from a wide variety of sources. While it's true you are entitled to hold your opinions without evidence to back them up, when you broadcast an uncharitable charge in public, evidence should be given by a man of honor to justify publicizing his opinion, should it not?


#15

[quote="Anna_Scott, post:10, topic:283086"]

Does the Catholic Church hold that God abandoned His Covenant with Israel and His promise to save Israel?

Isaiah 45:

17 But Israel is saved by the Lord
with everlasting salvation;
you shall not be put to shame or confounded
to all eternity.

I'm confused????

pen

[/quote]

Anna--

So far as I understand, extreme supersessionism is not an official Catholic doctrine. Supersessionism---to one degree or another---has arguably been the main stream of Catholic and Orthodox doctrine since the days of the ECF's. However, as far as I understand (and I could be wrong) Catholicism has backed off from declaring a definite position with regard to supersessionism, and Catholics are free to believe it or not believe it. Some Catholics seem not to have gotten the memo about this issue, and so they'll go after even Catholics who don't believe in supersesssionism.


#16

Reporter and discussion generator,

Really, I’m having to do some Internet searches to better understand what Dispensationalism really is.

I read one book, years ago, by John Hagee (I"m not a fan), who claimed that the Jews will be saved through a divine revelation that Jesus is the Messiah–I’m paraphrasing and it’s been years since I read the book. My Jewish friends told me about Hagee’s support for Israel, but they were cautious about his true motives.

Also, I remember Hal Lindsy, who wrote The Late Great Planet Earth----most of his assumptions and predictions did not come true–making him a false prophet. Though I think he has a TV show. Go figure.

I’ve heard about the Left Behind series, but have never read any of the books.

Since I grew up in the Baptist Church, I was taught the Rapture and numerous prophesies about Revelation, most of which I have discovered to be false.

Anglicans do not believe in the Rapture. Since I am a relatively new Anglican, I’m still sorting through many of the false teachings acquired during my life as a Baptist.

So cut me a little slack here, Reporter and Discussion Generator. :wink:

My understanding and beliefs are still evolving—hopefully closer to truth.

pen


#17

[quote="CopticChristian, post:13, topic:283086"]
...and now the real Israel, the true Israel, the People, the people of God is the Church. . .

[/quote]

Coptic,

I don't understand how this fits the CCC:

The Catechism of the Catholic Church
The glorious advent of Christ, the hope of Israel

673 Since the Ascension Christ's coming in glory has been imminent,566 even though "it is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has fixed by his own authority."567. This eschatological coming could be accomplished at any moment, even if both it and the final trial that will precede it are "delayed".568

674 The glorious Messiah's coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by "all Israel", for "a hardening has come upon part of Israel" in their "unbelief" toward Jesus. 569 St. Peter says to the Jews of Jerusalem after Pentecost: "Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old."570 St. Paul echoes him: "For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?"571 The "full inclusion" of the Jews in the Messiah's salvation, in the wake of "the full number of the Gentiles",572 will enable the People of God to achieve "the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ", in which "God may be all in all".573
scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c2a7.htm#674

Doesn't this reveal a hint of Dispensational Eschatology?
"The glorious Messiah's coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by "all Israel", for "a hardening has come upon part of Israel" in their "unbelief" toward Jesus."

If the Catholic Church is now*** Israel***, wouldn't that mean not all Israel, aka Catholics, recognize the Messiah; because a hardening has come upon part of Israel, aka Catholics? See what I'm saying? This doesn't make sense.

At this point, I'm not taking a position. I'm just trying to understand what the Dispensationalists are saying and what the Catholic Church is saying.

IOW, will the real Israel please stand up.

pen


#18

Dispensationalism explained:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/square/image-a.jpg

;)


#19

[quote="JustaServant, post:18, topic:283086"]
Dispensationalism explained:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/square/image-a.jpg

;)

[/quote]

:rotfl: And this helps me how?

Anna


#20

Even the Reformed and Lutherans believe that natural Israel will one day come to faith in Christ and be incorporated into the True Isreal, the Church. This is a belief held in common. But that is NOT the same as dispensationalism, which teaches a false dichotomy between Isreal and the Chruch and a return to the Old Testament types that have been fulfilled in Christ, the Church and the Eucharist.


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