Disproving his knowledge of history


#1

My father-in-law (I’ll call him Jim) is a Church of Christ. My husband (his son whom I’ll call Rob) is thinking of becoming Catholic. They had a conversation the other day about the bible. Jim stated that Martin Luther had to hide out, with the help of the Masons (sp?), to keep the Catholic Church from changing the bible. This supposedly was during the beginning of the reformation. Most things he says I can easily dispute, but how do I prove my knowledge of history is more accurate than his? I just ordered the book, “Where we got the bible”, but I doubt that will be very convincing to him since it was written by a catholic. Can anyone give me some information on a place to go that will give the accurate history on the bible that won’t be viewed as being biased? A web site would be very helpful.
Thank the good Lord above my husband doesn’t believe most his father tells him.
Thank you!


#2

look for a copy of the cambrige history of the bible


#3

Ask him to prove that the freemasons even existed during the reformation ROFL

Q: I was witnessing to a relative that is a Mason (Free Mason) and he claims that Martin Luther was a Mason. Is this true? What kind of information would be useful when witnessing to this person again? What is the Lutheran stand on Masons?

A: Martin Luther was not a Freemason. In the Middle Ages free and accepted masons were members of a trade guild, free to travel from construction site to construction site and accepted to ply their trade.

Freemasonry in its modern deistic form had its beginning in England in 1717 (200 years after Martin Luther posted the 95 Theses).

Freemasonry, as a movement, does not confess the Triune God or accept Jesus as the Son of God and Savior. It teaches salvation by works (good deeds).

wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?1518&cuTopic_topicID=22&cuItem_itemID=3720

also, ask him to define christian humanist too.

google.com/search?hl=en&q=christian+humanist+reformation+biblical+languages&spell=1


#4

here is what is true

Luther did go into hiding, I don’t remember with whom.

Luther did translate the NT into german.

Luther did change the Bible by leaving out the Book of James.


#5

fordham.edu/halsall/sbook1.html

fordham.edu/halsall/sbook1y.html

google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=History+English+Bible+online


#6

I would also ask anyone who makes these kind of claims to give YOU the proof. Ask them for secular, historical references - in other words, ask them for references from ‘neutral’ historians or historical reference material, i.e. The Encyclopedia Britannica, the history department from a local university or college. Once you have THEIR references you have a better chance of saying, “I am going to check this out. You don’t mind if I call so-and-so and such-and-such a university and ask them to verify your information do you?”

If the person making outrageous claims cannot back up these claims, I always gently remind them that unless they can offer solid, academically sound historic proof of their claim then they are in danger of breaking the 8th Commandment…and they wouldn’t want to be guilty of that, would they?


#7

I found this in reference to Luther going into hiding:

**Summoned to appear before Emperor Charles V at the Diet of Worms in April 1521, he was asked before the assembled secular and ecclesiastical rulers to recant. He refused firmly, asserting that he would have to be convinced by Scripture and clear reason in order to do so and that going against conscience is not safe for anyone. (The statement “Here I stand, I cannot do otherwise,” traditionally attributed to him, is most likely legendary.) Condemned by the emperor, Luther was spirited away by his prince, the elector Frederick the Wise of Saxony, and kept in hiding at Wartburg Castle. There he began his translation of the New Testament from the original Greek into German, a seminal contribution to the development of a standard German language. Disorders in Wittenberg caused by some of his more extreme followers forced his return to the city in March 1521, and he restored peace through a series of sermons. **

I found it on this website:
island-of-freedom.com/LUTHER.HTM

I have no idea if this is a valid website or not, but one can see how easy it is to do an internet search and get information on any subject.


#8

this is a good “protestant” history

ccel.org/s/schaff/history/About.htm

it sounds like he is getting his information from books like Foxes Book of Martyrs

ccel.org/f/foxe/martyrs/home.html


#9

I found it on this website:
island-of-freedom.com/LUTHER.HTM

I have no idea if this is a valid website or not, but one can see how easy it is to do an internet search and get information on any subject.

Hi Lesile K, to check reliability of a site simply paste the url into google and see who links to it.

google.com/search?hl=en&q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.island-of-freedom.com%2FLUTHER.HTM&btnG=Google+Search

google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&sa=G&q=%22www.island-of-freedom.com/LUTHER.HTM%22

google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=link:7n4VRSguhlkJ:www.island-of-freedom.com/LUTHER.HTM

then backtrack to see who they are that is linking to it.

If you get a bunch of jack chick type sites forget the url


#10

google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.island-of-freedom.com%2F


#11

thank you, Daniel! I always wondered how to check a link!

I LOVE learning new stuff…would this work on all websites or just theological ones?


#12

it works on all websites.

a common example for classroom use, is to demonstrate that an author is simply a “historical revisionist”, one who denies that the holocaust happened.


#13

[quote=Daniel Marsh]look for a copy of the cambrige history of the bible
[/quote]

All three volumes of it :smiley:


#14

CatholicChef:

You can place your confidence in the New American Bible, the footnotes, and find explainations at NewAdvent.org. The latter encyclopedia you can get on CD if you prefer.

Some recommend Duey Rheims (sp?) as a better bible for the scholastic, but NAB is a great family bible.

If you want a straight forward Q & A type book to over 5000 questions in terms the layman can understand concerning the Catholic religion, including chapters on other religions, Web search Volumes I,II,III of Radio Replies, by Frs. Rumble,Carty and the late Msgr. Fulton J Sheen.

I think the 3 volumes in paperback are still in print and go for 35$, a real bargain.

Andy


#15

[quote=CatholicChef]My father-in-law (I’ll call him Jim) is a Church of Christ. My husband (his son whom I’ll call Rob) is thinking of becoming Catholic. They had a conversation the other day about the bible. Jim stated that Martin Luther had to hide out, with the help of the Masons (sp?), to keep the Catholic Church from changing the bible. This supposedly was during the beginning of the reformation. Most things he says I can easily dispute, but how do I prove my knowledge of history is more accurate than his? I just ordered the book, “Where we got the bible”, but I doubt that will be very convincing to him since it was written by a catholic. Can anyone give me some information on a place to go that will give the accurate history on the bible that won’t be viewed as being biased? A web site would be very helpful.
Thank the good Lord above my husband doesn’t believe most his father tells him.
Thank you!
[/quote]

Just for the fun of it, you might visit an EX-COC site to find many of the reasons for their exit.
Normally, a person that makes an affirmation is the one who is morally obligated to prove it. If they refuse to do so, you can simply state; “that is not true” or "can you document that?"
Now when ML started his revolution, the printing press was in full force for about 35years. It’s most popular output was the bible…with 73 books. Anyone whose brain is still in gear would have to admit that at least 50,000 printings of the bible were in circulation, some in non-catholic hands, by the time ML began his revolution.
Pray tell, how would the Catholic Church change the bible and not have it become immediately notorius, to say nothing of gathering in all the bibles and ancient texts of it that were not in their hands or jurisdiction?
This site may help
Here is a non-catholic site on the bible
Here is one on The Problems of COC Restorationism, just in case you want to move to offense.
As the COC is so want to say: "Come now, let us reason together."
Another nail in the coffin is that, to the best of my knowledge Freemasonry was not in existence in any viable form prior to ML’s DEATH!
Another point is that the bible,by the COC admission, was not changed. So, either the Catholics failed or it never happened.
It was the KJV-an old favorite of COC-that had to revise itself several times over to reduce its 3000 errors.
This site is on the Baptists but it covers many of the COC beliefs, which was a near child of Baptist theology…separated only by COC insisting that Baptism is a sacrament that does forgive sins.
Here is one of the best sites in the Internet concerning bibles…it contains MANY original photos of old bibles.
Here is a site of converts to Catholic from COC.
I have relative that are COC, so I know how you feel!
Now, tell me dear chef; what’s the very best way to make hardboiled eggs and to keep the yokes from getting green/grey on the outer surface?


#16

good point TNT, also how did the catholic church get together with all branches of Judaism to change the OT?

they did not!!!

Also, the book of Isaiah of the dead sea scrolls is almost identical to the modern hebrew text demonstrating that there was not any changes.

There were many other OT books in the dead sea scrolls too.

none of which documents any serious changes to the text.


#17

TNT,

Funny! The only time I have ever seen the yolks turn green is when they have been kept in the frig. over night.
FYI I have learned a few tricks to keep the shell from sticking to the egg. Put salt in the water while they are boiling and when you take them off, fill the pan with ice to cool them down and the shell won’t stick!

Thanks to all of you for the links. Very helpful!!
Merry Christmas to all!!!


#18

Kurfürst Friederich der Weise brought Luther to the Wartburg in Eisenach.


#19

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