Disrespect of the Holy Mother


#1

I was searching the web and I came across a former Catholics for Christ discussion board. I am always curious to know why people leave Catholicism so I took a look around and I couldn’t believe the disrespect for the Holy Mother. In one thread they were talking about a “false prophecy” of Mary and one man replied: "Which Mary?

Taco Mary

Tree Stump Mary

Mexican Mary in a Tilma

French Mary in a Grotto

Mary on Eqyptian Church Roof

Mary in a Fogged Window Florida

Mary here, Mary there…

WHICH Mary do we talk about?

Certainly NOT the biblical Mary, she is dead, but don’t tell them that."

How as Catholics can we show fellow protestants about their heavenly mother?


#2

Start with Mary in Scripture. It helps to understand that many Catholic converts to Fundamentalsim were never really well catechized and did not fully understand the Catholic faith before they accepted a caricature of it that was presented by them to others who were not Catholic. They accepted the caricature because they recognized some of its elements and so accepted the distortions and falsehoods too.

Here are some resource links for you.

bcpl.net/~spohl/MaryArkoftheCovenant.htm

bcpl.net/~spohl/MarytheNewEve.htm

bcpl.net/~spohl/MarianDoctrinesChristologicalDoctrines.htm

bcpl.net/~spohl/MaryDoctrinesintheBible.htm

bcpl.net/~spohl/PrayertoMaryandtheSaints.htm

catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp


#3

Love them, pray for them, don’t go near them unless you are a good apologist and solid in your own faith, they’ll lay a trap for you. They’re predators.


#4

[quote=convertmjh]I was searching the web and I came across a former Catholics for Christ discussion board. I am always curious to know why people leave Catholicism so I took a look around and I couldn’t believe the disrespect for the Holy Mother. In one thread they were talking about a “false prophecy” of Mary and one man replied: "Which Mary?

Taco Mary

Tree Stump Mary

Mexican Mary in a Tilma

French Mary in a Grotto

Mary on Eqyptian Church Roof

Mary in a Fogged Window Florida

Mary here, Mary there…

WHICH Mary do we talk about?

Certainly NOT the biblical Mary, she is dead, but don’t tell them that."

How as Catholics can we show fellow protestants about their heavenly mother?
[/quote]

It amazes me that people, even other Christians, if they don’t believe in showing any special reverence for Christ’s mother, will ridicule (at the very least) another fellow sister in Christ in these ways. I’m sure these same people wouldn’t want this for their own mother, but then to direct it to the mother of their Lord! :frowning:


#5

Oh lord, so another one has found good ole Former Catholics for Chaos. I find that site despicable not for their conflicting beliefs, but because there is an utter lack of charity. There are several “King James Only” fanatics there and the Catholic Church is generally known as the “whore.” We are “papists,” “Romanuts,” “cookie-eaters,” “pedophiles,” Cat-aholics," and many other things to them. Since the place is so centered on ad hominem attacks, it’s difficult to make a logical post and have it noticed at that board, but pray and post away (with help from Catholic Answers of course) and help them to see the truth. I’ll see you around!

It amazes me that people, even other Christians, if they don’t believe in showing any special reverence for Christ’s mother, will ridicule (at the very least) another fellow sister in Christ in these ways. I’m sure these same people wouldn’t want this for their own mother, but then to direct it to the mother of their Lord!

They claim they do revere the Mary as the mother of Christ from Scripture, but hate the “abominations” the Catholic Church has turned her into. It’s just a product of their contempt for the Church. To them, the apparitions were sent by Satan.

Shamus:)


#6

Protestants and fallen away catholics that engage in this type of irreverence toward Mary and scripture, need to be asked how their disrespectful comments square with Luke 1:48 where is says, “For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed;”

I’ve asked non-catholics that respectfully disagree with catholic teaching on the Blessed Virgin a similar question. Most often they accuse catholics of worshipping or, at least, over emphasizing “Mary.” Usually, I will let them carry on and repeat their reference to her as “Mary” until it’s clear that they never refer to her as “blessed.” I then mention that I have never heard a protestant refer to Jesus mother with the word “blessed” either in title or in context. This having been said, I then ask them why they are not following scripture. This has usually rendered them momentarily speechless and no one has ever given an answer to the point. Instead they usually move on to another subject.


#7

[quote=Pax]Protestants and fallen away catholics that engage in this type of irreverence toward Mary and scripture, need to be asked how their disrespectful comments square with Luke 1:48 where is says, “For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed;”

I’ve asked non-catholics that respectfully disagree with catholic teaching on the Blessed Virgin a similar question. Most often they accuse catholics of worshipping or, at least, over emphasizing “Mary.” Usually, I will let them carry on and repeat their reference to her as “Mary” until it’s clear that they never refer to her as “blessed.” I then mention that I have never heard a protestant refer to Jesus mother with the word “blessed” either in title or in context. This having been said, I then ask them why they are not following scripture. This has usually rendered them momentarily speechless and no one has ever given an answer to the point. Instead they usually move on to another subject.
[/quote]

I have a TAN reprint of the 1899 Challonerversion of the Douay-Rheims Bible (it has the imprimatur of Cardinal Gibbons) complete with Bishop Challoner’s footnotes. The one I like the best is the one for Luke 1:48 that goes something like this: “This shows the respect that the church in all ages shall pay to Mary. Let protestants examine to see if they are concerned in any way with this prophecy.” :smiley:


#8

As a former Protestant, I came to view Mary in a different light when I came across these points:

Name another woman who conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit? Luke 1:35-38

Name another mother who carried the Divine Person of GOD in her womb for nine months?

Name another mother, whose child she carried, was the cause of a child in another mothers womb to leap for joy? Luke 1:44

Name another mother who gave birth to a person with two natures, one human and one divine?

Name another mother from whom Jesus Christ received all of His genes?

Name another mother from whom Jesus Christ received His flesh, blood, and bone? He is bone of her bone and flesh of her flesh.

Lots more at this web site:

home.inreach.com/bstanley/ven.htm


#9

It says in one of the 10 Commandments: “Honor your father and your mother…”(Exodus 20:12)

The Son honored His mother in a perfect way than we do. So, why can’t we honor her in the same way Her Son does?

Pio


#10

[quote=Gideon’s Sword]As a former Protestant, I came to view Mary in a different light when I came across these points:

Name another woman who conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit? Luke 1:35-38

Name another mother who carried the Divine Person of GOD in her womb for nine months?

Name another mother, whose child she carried, was the cause of a child in another mothers womb to leap for joy? Luke 1:44

Name another mother who gave birth to a person with two natures, one human and one divine?

Name another mother from whom Jesus Christ received all of His genes?

Name another mother from whom Jesus Christ received His flesh, blood, and bone? He is bone of her bone and flesh of her flesh.

Lots more at this web site:

home.inreach.com/bstanley/ven.htm
[/quote]

Well said!


#11

You are certainly correct when you say that we must have respect for fellow Christians but it is often lacking - in all denominations - (including Roman Catholicism).

As a Catholic who left the church based on Marian doctrines let me present some food for thought.

The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception seems to have come at a time when science revealed that the woman was not just a recepticle as was thought but an active contributer to the offspring. Therefore Mary had to be sinless. How can God associate with sinful beings? (Jesus did HIs whole life!)

The Gospel messages deal with salvation (What must I do to be saved) and there is no mention of Mary in this plan except to fulfil prophesy.

Most of what I was taught about Mary ( her parents, the selection of St Joseph as spouse) is absent from the Bible and comes from other non-canonical books.

Generally the Marian apparitions present a very Old Testament viewpoint - Do penance or pray so that wars and other punishments will not be inflicted on the world - This does not seems to me to be a New Testament Christ message.

Why all the multiple personallities (Our Lady of This - Our Lady of That) Are they not the same person?

Much is made of Mary’s contribution of Jesus’ humanity but yet His conception is miraculous, His birth is miraculous. God can create from nothing - He needs no help or building blocks.

Alternatively, God sets aside Divine intervention and (as He did His whole life) plays by the “rules” of human existance. He is the Incarnation, True God - True Man. He suffers and dies like a man.

Sometimes we get too excited and loose our perspective and forget Mary is the God-Bearer. We must always honor the Mother of Christ.


#12

The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception seems to have come at a time when science revealed that the woman was not just a recepticle as was thought but an active contributer to the offspring. Therefore Mary had to be sinless. How can God associate with sinful beings? (Jesus did HIs whole life!)

When Jesus became man he associated with sinful people, which is very much correct. But being the bone of the bones and flesh of the flesh of the Mother of God is a BIG DIFFERENCE to just associating with people. For you to say (correct me if I’m wrong) that the Church err on this is just saying that God Himself allowed to be touched by Satan at the moment of His conception in the womb of the Blessed Virgin if Mary would have sinned–this is unthinkable! The great mystery of salvation is not known to us in its entirety, our human mind cannot fathom all of it. The Holy Spirit infuses wisdom upon the Church when there is a time when the doctrine is greatly challenge and the danger upon the faithful is emminent, that’s why we have Councils of the Church.

The Gospel messages deal with salvation (What must I do to be saved) and there is no mention of Mary in this plan except to fulfil prophesy.

Here are points to ponder:
Imagine if Mary said no to God during the Angel Gabriel’s apperance. Imagine the first Christmas without Mary. Imagine how Christ would nurse himself without Mary. Imagine how Christ would be guided while growing up without Mary. And the list goes on and on…

Generally the Marian apparitions present a very Old Testament viewpoint - Do penance or pray so that wars and other punishments will not be inflicted on the world - This does not seems to me to be a New Testament Christ message.

Do we have to discard the OT because we have the NT? Then why would Christ say that He had come not to abolish the law but to fulfill (referring to the OT). This is just one of the many passages in the Bible that points to the OT as useful. The Apostles often quote from the OT, esp. in the Acts and others, do you mean the Apostles discard it because we already have the NT? It doesn’t seem like it.

Why all the multiple personallities (Our Lady of This - Our Lady of That) Are they not the same person?

This title does not mean multiple personalities. You are correct, they are the same person. Why would we call Jesus as: the Lamb of God, Messiah, Suffering Servant, Alpha and Omega, Son of David, Son of Man, Emmanuel, Prince of Peace…etc, etc. get it???:wink:

Alternatively, God sets aside Divine intervention and (as He did His whole life) plays by the “rules” of human existance.

Ooops, try to clarify. Are you suggesting that Jesus came to just play the “rule” of human existence? His becoming like one of us is already an “act of divine intervention.” He came to fulfill it Himself!

Bless you,

Pio


#13

Dear HL Gomez:

Sorry but I have difficulty understanding the touched “by Satan etc.” Jesus instituted the Eucharist so that you and I could receive Him (God) into our bodies every Sunday. I am a sinful person - He knows this yet becomes one with me anyway. This is the greatest gift of love and forgiveness. I believe an important part of that gift is for us to realize it and to die to ourselves and live for Christ - Not keep thinking about how unworthy and sinful we are.

What Jewish woman would not have wanted to bear the Messiah? How does Jesus get born without Mary? He is God -He needs nothing BUT Although God doesn’t need a mother - He played by the rules - that is was 100% human (and 100% God).
That’s why when someone you love or you yourself are dying - you can look to the cross and remember “I go to prepare a place for you” (He lived the human life - including death - 100%)

These are not just names for Mary they are distinct apparitions and messages. The messages typically are “obey or pay” like the punishing God of the O.T. The O.T serves to show us our sinfulness – not as a mechanism for salvation - or else Jesus the Redeemer is not needed.

Be honest and admit that the only mechanism for accepting these “doctrines” is to accept the infallibility of the Pope. I can accept an argument for his authority but have not seen any for his infallibility. (Gates of hell, etc.)

Sorry - I’m getting excited again. I’m sure you agree with 90% of the above and that’s what all Christians should key on - what we do agree upon - What power the universal church would have then! God Bless


#14

Hi There:

As an Anglican Christian who honors Mary I hope you accept these observations:

  1. The ammount of reference to Mary in RC devotions sometimes seems to exceed that which should be given to Christ.

  2. The multiple Marian aparitions and designations are really a source of confusion to many Protestants and Catholics alike. Sometims it seems there are competing “Mary’s” out there, Do not laugh but the Filipinos and the Cubans in a local RC parish where I live almost went at it when “that chinese virgin” replaced the “virgen morena” in a side chapel. Will the “real” Mary please stand up.

  3. Have any of you ever seen the “mananitas” to the Lady of Guadalupe on TV or gone to Mexico for her feast day ? Be assured that after two hours of uninterrupted lauds to Mary and not a single mention to Jesus, it seems to Protestants that your devotion may be a bit exxagerated.

  4. Marian aparitions and the claims made in her name in “private revelation” seem almost scandalous. Did Mary really promise salvation to those who wear the brown scapular? If so how does that relate to Christ death?..you get the point! These are things many RC’s seem to believe and accept without question…which to us are difficult to swallow.

  5. Coredemptrix and Mediatrix af all graces…define it how you will…it seems to say more than intended…do not even go there!

  6. The newer dogmas of Assumption and Immaculate Conception seem to have no firm Scriptural foundation. The Assumption to me is acceptable…the IC is less so!

What seems to be wrong with this picture?

Blessings

Serafin


#15

[quote=Anglo-catholic]Dear HL Gomez:

Sorry but I have difficulty understanding the touched “by Satan etc.” Jesus instituted the Eucharist so that you and I could receive Him (God) into our bodies every Sunday. I am a sinful person - He knows this yet becomes one with me anyway. This is the greatest gift of love and forgiveness. I believe an important part of that gift is for us to realize it and to die to ourselves and live for Christ - Not keep thinking about how unworthy and sinful we are.

What Jewish woman would not have wanted to bear the Messiah? How does Jesus get born without Mary? He is God -He needs nothing BUT Although God doesn’t need a mother - He played by the rules - that is was 100% human (and 100% God).
That’s why when someone you love or you yourself are dying - you can look to the cross and remember “I go to prepare a place for you” (He lived the human life - including death - 100%)

These are not just names for Mary they are distinct apparitions and messages. The messages typically are “obey or pay” like the punishing God of the O.T. The O.T serves to show us our sinfulness – not as a mechanism for salvation - or else Jesus the Redeemer is not needed.

Be honest and admit that the only mechanism for accepting these “doctrines” is to accept the infallibility of the Pope. I can accept an argument for his authority but have not seen any for his infallibility. (Gates of hell, etc.)
[/quote]

Misconceptions

Infallible does not mean:

  1. The Pope cannot tell a lie.
  2. The Pope cannot sin.
  3. The Pope cannot make a mistake.
  4. Everything the Pope says is the absolute truth.
  5. The Pope is perfect in every way.

The Pope is the human visible head of the Church, the Vicar of Christ on earth, just as Jesus Christ is the invisible head.

The correct definition of Papal infallibility (ex Cathedra), as defined by the First Vatican Council (1870), is:

“The Roman Pontiff, when he speaks ex cathedra-that is, when in discharge of the office of pastor and teacher of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding Faith or Morals to be held by the universal Church, by the divine assistance promised to him in Blessed Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the divine Redeemer willed that His Church should be endowed in defining doctrine regarding Faith or Morals; and therefore such definitions are irreformable of themselves, and not in virtue of consent of the Church.”

Condensed, this means, a Papal infallible statement, when all conditions are met, has freedom from error in teaching the universal Church in matters of faith or morals.

[font=Arial]Now what about the authors of the New Testament, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter and others? Were they infallible people or were they sinners? As I have already shown, Peter admitted that he was a sinner, and we all know the story of Saul who became Paul. We know they were all sinners. How then, could fallible men write such infallible documents as the books they authored? It is because they were guided by the Holy Spirit. GOD prevented them from writing error. GOD is the same yesterday, today, and forever. If GOD prevented these men from writing error, why then could He not do the same for the successor of St. Peter today? [/font]


#16

Misconceptions

Infallible does not mean:

  1. The Pope cannot tell a lie.
  2. The Pope cannot sin.
  3. The Pope cannot make a mistake.
  4. Everything the Pope says is the absolute truth.
  5. The Pope is perfect in every way.

The Pope is the human visible head of the Church, the Vicar of Christ on earth, just as Jesus Christ is the invisible head.

The correct definition of Papal infallibility (ex Cathedra), as defined by the First Vatican Council (1870), is:

“The Roman Pontiff, when he speaks ex cathedra-that is, when in discharge of the office of pastor and teacher of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding Faith or Morals to be held by the universal Church, by the divine assistance promised to him in Blessed Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the divine Redeemer willed that His Church should be endowed in defining doctrine regarding Faith or Morals; and therefore such definitions are irreformable of themselves, and not in virtue of consent of the Church.”

Condensed, this means, a Papal infallible statement, when all conditions are met, has freedom from error in teaching the universal Church in matters of faith or morals.

[font=Arial][size=2]Now what about the authors of the New Testament, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter and others? Were they infallible people or were they sinners? Peter admitted that he was a sinner, and we all know the story of Saul who became Paul. We know they were all sinners. How then, could fallible men write such infallible documents as the books they authored? It is because they were guided by the Holy Spirit. GOD prevented them from writing error. GOD is the same yesterday, today, and forever. If GOD prevented these men from writing error, why then could He not do the same for the successor of St. Peter today? [/size][/font]


#17

It was GOD Himself through the Angel Gabriel in Luke 1:28, who was teh first to call Mary “blessed”. If GOD said “Hail, full of Grace, the Lord is with thee”, in the same verse, could Mary have been ‘full of grace’ or ‘blessed’ or have the ‘Lord with her’, had she been stained by original sin? No. By being “full of Grace”, and being told “the Lord is with thee”, she is made higher than even Eve who was never told these things. Was Eve created with original sin? No. Then why do you think Mary, who is higher than Eve, was born with original sin?

When something happens in the Old Testament is is fulfilled with something in the New Testament. So the Ark of the covenent -> Blessed Virgin Mary. Hebrews 9:3-4 tells us that inside the Ark of The Covenet was contained the word of God (10 commandment tablets). If Jesus is the “Word Incarnate” then Mary is the New testament fulfillment of that ARK, she is the container for the most holy and precious thing to come on to this Earth.
Notice the similarities between Luke 1:43 & 2 Samuel 6:9
Elizabeth says "Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"
David says “Who am I that the Ark of my Lord should come to me?”

Rev 11:19
"Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant."

the ark/MARY was in GOD’S TEMPLE
was anybody else said to be blessed with this honor?

Exod 25:11 God tells how to prepare the ark
"Overlay it with pure gold, both inside and out, and make a gold molding around it."

Gold. the very best available.

references to consider include Rom 15:14; 1 Cor 15:22

Also if you would take a look at Isaiah 52:11
"Depart, depart, go out from there!
Touch no unclean thing!
Come out from it and be pure,
you who carry the vessels of the LORD."

If Mary is to be a vessel that carries the Lord, she is to be made with this in mind.

GOD will not join Himself with anything defiled, Wis 1:4-5, Isa 59:1-4, Rom 1:18-32, Rev 21:27.

Jesus is the only person who ever created His own mother (John 1:1-3) If you had the opportunity to do the same, would you create yours tainted with sin and destined for eternal death?

If you said that Mary needed redemption, I agree . But this was done by applying the merits of Jesus’ death and ressurection in advance to prepare a spotless vessel in which God would dwell

Jesus could have appeared on this earth as a full grown 30 year old man. But he came through Mary. Jesus gave her to us at the very foot of the cross. some of the last words he spoke.

John 19:25-27
When Jesus saw his mother there [near the cross], and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, “Dear woman, here is your son,” and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.

If you are to be a disciple of Christ, you must accept Mary as your own mother. She is my mother and yours, and I for one respect this particular doctrine of her immaculate conception, and lacking of sin that early christians also believed.

Even the first Protestant had this to say:
“It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin.”
-Martin Luther, Sermon: “On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God”

Please brothers and sisters, how did our beliefs stray so far from each others? It is not easy to understand things sometimes, but God asks that we believe whole heartedly. I ask that you consider these without having your mind already set that Mary couldn’t have been without sin since she was just human.


#18

Sounds evil to call them predators.

Describing Protestants as ‘predators’ is going way TOO far. It’s offensive.

These remarks were left on my profile. I’m sorry for having offended you and anyone else who read my comments. But I used to be a Protestant – and I was trained to be a predator. We knew how to lay the snare for catching unwary Catholics, for sure! Are you saved? Gotcha! Have you been born again? Gotcha! Throw Bible verses at 'em until they’re so confused, they’ll have to admit that we’re right. Always go in pairs, and target a person alone. And we called the Church the Whore of Babylon and the Holy Father the antichrist.

I was remembering my own predatory training and practices when I wrote that. It’s something a Catholic parent needs to beware of.

JMJ Jay


#19

Sounds evil to call them predators…well, it is evil to bash the Mother of God, too! Katholikos, I hear what you are writing…I know of what you write and I happen to agree with you. Not ALL, but some protest-ants are predators. Katholikos also wrote to pray for those who do not hold Our Blessed Mother in respect.

Fight all error, but do it with good humor,
patience, kindness and love. Harshness
will damage your soul and spoil the best
cause.
St. John of Kanty


#20

[quote=convertmjh]I was searching the web and I came across a former Catholics for Christ discussion board. I am always curious to know why people leave Catholicism so I took a look around and I couldn’t believe the disrespect for the Holy Mother. In one thread they were talking about a “false prophecy” of Mary and one man replied: "Which Mary?

Taco Mary

Tree Stump Mary

Mexican Mary in a Tilma

French Mary in a Grotto

Mary on Eqyptian Church Roof

Mary in a Fogged Window Florida

Mary here, Mary there…

WHICH Mary do we talk about?

Certainly NOT the biblical Mary, she is dead, but don’t tell them that."

How as Catholics can we show fellow protestants about their heavenly mother?
[/quote]

This is very mild in the extreme, I will not repeat what I have heard folks say about Mary. The fact that Mary is a “Catholic thing” she is hated rather deeply. Some of the Protestants I know dont want nothing to do with a “Heavenly Mother”. They are born again, it is settled, nothing else is required. I have often wondered why “Catholic things” are literally hated deeply. I have great respect for Mary, I often shared that respect.

Personally I have no problem with any RCC claims other then the Papal claims which I find extremely sad and funny, but that is just a personal opinion. I have always been grieved as to how Mary was often treated or ignored.


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