Dissenting Catholics in America

I was reading an article about how most of the American laity is disillusioned about the Catholic Church’s teachings on topics like contraception and male priesthood. They also mentioned that the Catholic Church is short on priests in America, and that many American Catholics would like to see a ‘more democratic’ church, with more of a ‘bottom-up’ than a ‘top-down’ system of governance.

I just thought of a wonderful solution to this problem! Granted, it’s been done before, but it worked! This is the plan::hmmm:

Every American Catholic who disagrees with Church teaching should get together, and form a new system of churches with a more democratic structure. They could call it the “Cafeteria Catholic Church”. They could promote contraception and abortion, have female priests, and vote on what the Church should teach! They could even vote for their own pope! That would also help against the priest shortage, because of the reduced numbers of laypersons in the “Old-Style Catholic” pews.

The best part would be that they wouldn’t have to try to force their views on us ‘hard-headed conservatives’ who think the Catholic Church’s teaching has been right for the past 2,000 years!:smiley:

I think this has been done already except for the electing their own pope and the name.

.

Since that poll was conducted by MSNBC, it is automatically suspect. Why would anyone poll non-Catholics on what the Catholic church ought to do? They stated that respondents identifying themselves as Catholic voted almost exactly the same as those identifying themselves as non-Catholic. I find this hard to believe. The numbers from both groups were roughly 60% in favor of the changes. Has the demon of secularism penetrated that deeply into our church? I sure hope not. We’ll just have to wait and see how it plays out under the new pope.

I’m new…meaning I was just baptized but when I heard CNN, questioning a priest about changing doctrine to for Americans I was so mad. He said something about America being so different, so things should be different.

I was like NO! I for one believe that if you are Catholic you believe what the Church teaches. You can’t pick and choose.

[quote=AmberDale]I’m new…meaning I was just baptized but when I heard CNN, questioning a priest about changing doctrine to for Americans I was so mad. He said something about America being so different, so things should be different.

I was like NO! I for one believe that if you are Catholic you believe what the Church teaches. You can’t pick and choose.
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Out of the mouths of newbies… :clapping: Congrats on your baptism and best wishes in your continuing growth!

PS - My reference to you as a newbie was not meant to be taken offensively. I most certainly commend your understanding of the Church as you apparently know better than MANY Catholics including a past Presidential candidate, and many who are in Congress, to say nothing of the large amount of average people you will see sitting in the pews every Sunday.

Yet, it is still sad that these people, the “dissenting” Catholics and the anti-Catholic media can’t wait until this sad hour is over to start in on us again… whatever happened to manners and simple respect for one’s foes?

With all the writing JPII did, more than most other popes in history, if I recall correctly, I am convinced the messages he conveyed in his writings were according to God’s will.

The fact that he became pope at all was the first indicator that he was God’s chosen, and not a political puppet.

The fact that he was granted 26 years to spread the Good News is the other sign.

The fact that he was moved to return to Christ’s roots by being the traveling pope is another sign.

And the fact that he was blessed to die peacefully among his beloved people, hearing their singing, on the eve of Divine Mercy Sunday is the last sign I perceive as God telling us to heed what JPII had to say.

Now it so happens JPII was quite conservative, so wake up, America. You would not dare approach Christ to tell him to ‘lighten up’ in His message to us, so how DARE you ask the same of Christ on earth - our Pope?!

It infuriates me to hear people insist God’s way be changed to accommodate them. Who do they think they are? They have no faith, no trust.

[quote=Tietjen]Out of the mouths of newbies… :clapping: Congrats on your baptism and best wishes in your continuing growth!

PS - My reference to you as a newbie was not meant to be taken offensively. I most certainly commend your understanding of the Church as you apparently know better than MANY Catholics including a past Presidential candidate, and many who are in Congress, to say nothing of the large amount of average people you will see sitting in the pews every Sunday.
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I’m not offended. I new to being Catholic by a week, but ever since I (or should I say the Holy Spirit) made the decision for me to Convert, I considered myself Catholic. I’ve done lots of research into it. I love the way it is.
Of all things, I think I will be very confused if they start changing things on me since I am so new. That’s my concern, I’m learning a Faith that I love. But all of a sudden they might change stuff! I was thinking no, please no. But then, I don’t think the divine Trinity will allow anything to change that isn’t meant to change. Which the only thing I want to change, is the way some of our American Priests are so afraid/nervous to actually speak the TRUTH!! Speak what the Church teaches and not what America wants to hear. That’s what I want!
Religion is not a democracy, it comes from God and God alone no one else.

You know what’s awesome about converts (althou I’m a cradle Catholic myself)? They’re never dissenters. I wonder why that is…probably because they have actually done their homework and learned why the Church teaches what she does.:slight_smile:

Man there a lot of wingnuts commin’ out from under the rocks. They act as if JPII personally invented the teachings on sexuality, the priesthood, etc. I other words, they act like it is personal policy like the U.S. President or something.

Scott

There was a survey a few years back.

religioustolerance.org/rcc_poll.htm

54% of U.S. Catholics would let priests marry

61% of U.S. Catholics say artificial birth control is not immoral

62% of U.S. Catholics would like more democracy

However …

… I’ve also seen a survey that says 70% of U.S. Catholics do not attend Mass regularly

… yet they would be entitled to partcipate in these surveys.

[quote=Genesis315]You know what’s awesome about converts (althou I’m a cradle Catholic myself)? They’re never dissenters. I wonder why that is…probably because they have actually done their homework and learned why the Church teaches what she does.:slight_smile:
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1Cor. 10:1 I want you to know, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea,

1Cor. 10:2   and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,  

1Cor. 10:3   and all ate the same supernatural food  

1Cor. 10:4   and all drank the same supernatural drink. For they drank from the supernatural Rock which followed them, and the Rock was Christ.  

1Cor. 10:5   Nevertheless with most of them God was not pleased; for they were overthrown in the wilderness.  

1Cor. 10:6   Now these things are warnings for us, not to desire evil as they did.  

1Cor. 10:7   Do not be idolaters as some of them were; as it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to dance."  

1Cor. 10:8   We must not indulge in immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in a single day.  

1Cor. 10:9 We must not put the Lord to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents;

1Cor. 10:10   nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer.  

1Cor. 10:11   Now these things happened to them as a warning, but they were written down for our instruction, upon whom the end of the ages has come.  

**1Cor. 10:12   Therefore let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.  

**
1Cor. 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

Knowledge of doctrine, is not enough - without interior conversion, accompanied by charity, it will be worthless, perhaps deadly. Knowledge does not save. Which is not to say it is without value. Faith, saves no one from falling away - that is something God alone can do.

IOW, we never have reasons to look down on each other. That would be to forget that we form a Body. We might point to others as “dissenters” - but does God share our estimate of others ?

A few questions to think about:
[list]
*]Are we better than they ?
*]Is dissent the only sin ?
*]Does God require doctrinal orthodoxy, but not humility and mercy and peaceableness ?
*]Can we guarantee that what we object to in others today, we shall not ourselves do tomorrow, or in a week, or in five or twenty year’s time ?
*]Do we know that those we find fault with, will not one today be far more like Christ than we may ? ##
[/list]

[quote=YinYangMom]You would not dare approach Christ to tell him to ‘lighten up’ in His message to us
[/quote]

You might be surprised.

(What’s more, judging by Christ’s reaction to Thomas, I have a feeling that if someone questioned one of His positions, He’d probably be pretty cool about it.)

[quote=Genesis315]You know what’s awesome about converts (althou I’m a cradle Catholic myself)? They’re never dissenters. I wonder why that is…probably because they have actually done their homework and learned why the Church teaches what she does.:slight_smile:
[/quote]

I am a RCIA student as well, will be confirmed this month. It has been quite the experience first learning the watered down version and then while doing the research finally learning the true teaching of The Church and goin got the TM and all that, it is great.

I am glad that I got to see both sides now once can follow The Church without confusion.

yes! That is the problem i see with most poeple today everything revolves around them, everything is “I want, I need, me myself and I” it is very egoistical and it is what has been leading society downhill. Now everyone just wants instant gratification and cheap results ot whatever fantasies they have.

It is really frustrating to see how low humanity has gone.

[quote=YinYangMom]With all the writing JPII did, more than most other popes in history, if I recall correctly, I am convinced the messages he conveyed in his writings were according to God’s will.

The fact that he became pope at all was the first indicator that he was God’s chosen, and not a political puppet.

The fact that he was granted 26 years to spread the Good News is the other sign.

The fact that he was moved to return to Christ’s roots by being the traveling pope is another sign.

And the fact that he was blessed to die peacefully among his beloved people, hearing their singing, on the eve of Divine Mercy Sunday is the last sign I perceive as God telling us to heed what JPII had to say.

Now it so happens JPII was quite conservative, so wake up, America. You would not dare approach Christ to tell him to ‘lighten up’ in His message to us, so how DARE you ask the same of Christ on earth - our Pope?!

It infuriates me to hear people insist God’s way be changed to accommodate them. Who do they think they are? They have no faith, no trust.
[/quote]

Are we better than they?

No. And correctly pointing out dissent in no way implies this.

Is dissent the only sin?

No, but it is a particularly grave sin because it leads the sheep astray. It is also a sin that can be corrected vigorously, and should be.

Does God require doctrinal orthodoxy, but not humility and mercy and peaceableness ?

False dichotomy. He requires all of the above. Admonishing and disciplining dissenters IS an act of mercy.

Can we guarantee that what we object to in others today, we shall not ourselves do tomorrow, or in a week, or in five or twenty year’s time ?

We are all sinners, but that does not mean that we lie by ignoring sin as if it is not sin out of fear of being called a hypocrite. Truth is still Truth tommorow, in a week, in five years, in twenty years, in twenty thousand years.

Do we know that those we find fault with, will not one today be far more like Christ than we may ? ##

This is basically the same as the first question. Same answer.

Scott

Depends what you mean by Conservative. He was the first Pope to enter a mosque. The first since Peter to enter a synagogue. The first to call an interfaith gathering like the Assisi meetings for peace. He was against the Death Penalty. He was against unfettered Free Market Capitalism. He opposed both Wars against Iraq and the Sanctions regime. He supported the cancellation of the debts of the worlds most highly indebted countries.

The Church of Christ is neither Conservative or Liberal. It is radical, it challenges everyone, everyone to change. Faithful to his Royal Master John Paul challenged each of us to look deep within ourselves. If John Paul did nothing but comfort you and stroke your prejudices (I don’t mean this personally YingYangMom this is a collective you) then you really weren’t paying attention to his words and the exampleof his life.

There was a survey a few years back.

religioustolerance.or g/rcc_poll.htm

54% of U.S. Catholics would let priests marry

61% of U.S. Catholics say artificial birth control is not immoral

62% of U.S. Catholics would like more democracy

However …

… I’ve also seen a survey that says 70% of U.S. Catholics do not attend Mass regularly

… yet they would be entitled to partcipate in these surveys.

I think if these polls would stick to church going Catholics, they would show substantially different results. Simply by the fact that if those 70% that were polled do not attend mass regularly these polls are bogus. There may be 1.1 billion people who call themselves Catholic, but how many actually accept all the teachings of the CC. If I’m not mistaken regarding priest and ABC, both are level 2 teachings and the faithful who do not abide by these teachings cease to be in communion with the Church. (Someone at Q&A correct me if I’m wrong)

Imagine of the Church would be more of a democracy, where would that lead us. When would elections be held, and how often. Would bishop then run for office, campaign, hold debates and if some liberals won and changed some teachings and then a few years hence a conservative won and changed those same teachings again, it would become a Yo-Yo church. God does not run a democracy. He is the creator, and he left the Church to do his work on earth, spread his Word, teach his Truths, etc. etc…

Married priests is a discipline only and could possibly be changed. There are many married priest, as a matter of fact my Pastor is married with five children and a couple of grandchildren.

I’m not saying that I do, but even if I were to disagree with any of the Church teachings, I am still obligated to abide by them. I would then pray and ask the Lord to guide me to a fuller understanding of that specific Church teaching. For example, there is a set of traffic lights about 1 mile from where I live and every time I go by there I get frustrated because I think the settings are dumb. Do I have a right to just run the red lights because I do not agree with how they are set up? You better believe that I sit there waiting until the green light changes. 

I fail to see how these people can call themselves Catholic, present themselves to communion, and say they practice ABC, go to mass whenever they “feel” like it, and they pick and choose which teachings to abide by.

Are those types of Catholics what they call ‘Cafeteria Catholics’ ?

[quote=AmberDale]Are those types of Catholics what they call ‘Cafeteria Catholics’ ?
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A ‘Cafeteria Catholic’ is one who picks and chooses which Church teachings he or she agrees or disagrees with. A person who, for example, says, “I’m a Catholic, but I still use artificial birth control,” is a Cafeteria Catholic. Martin Luther was a Cafeteria Catholic, but they didn’t use that phrase back then… they just said ‘heretic’. Basically the same thing.

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