Distrust Of Reason


#1

I have founded out that reason is not an very conforting friend sometimes, cause reasoning is limited. In CCC 1136(795,1090) about the liturgy, it says that it is;Christus Totus who is performing the heavenly liturgy…WHAT IS THAT!!? It is not biblical anyway!!!
It is not what the Scriptures says anyway, but it is the philosophical wiew of point based upon the Summa of Thomas of Aquinas
philosophy. And i quote Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones, an evangelical Calvinistic Methodist: “Philosophy has always been the cause of the church going astray, for philosophy means, ultimately, a trusting to human reason and human understanding. The philosopher wants to encompass all truth; he wants to categorize and explain everything, and that is why there are no more important passages in the Scripture for us at the present time than the First Epistle of Corinthians, starting in chapter 1, at verse 17, and going right the way through to the end the of chapter 4, with especial reference to chapter 2. The apostle’s whole contention in those chapters is that things were going wrong in Corinth because they were beginning to bring back faith in human wisdom, philsophy; and this point is to show that this is diametrically opposed to the preaching of the gospel.He says he has become a fool for Christ’s sake:‘If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him be a fool, that he may be wise’ (1Cor.3:18).Here ‘a fool’ means that you do not trust to philosophy nd human wisdom. This is really a most important matter.
Martin Luther used to refer to: ‘that old witch’, Lady Reason’ , and those of you who are familiar with his writings know how he constantly emphasized this point, that reason is an old witch. He was concerned about this, of course, because it was the essence of his argument against Rome. It is true still that the trouble with Roman Catholicism is that they say they believe the Bible. Let us grant that they do, and that they are quite sincere in saying that, but what, then, is the trouble? The trouble is that they have added Aristotelian philosophy on to their belief in the Bible, and that ultimately they are interpreting the Bible in terms of Aristotelian philosophy. That is the great characteristic of the Summa of Thomas Aquinas, and it was the result of this that the evangel, the true gospel, had become entirely hidden. So it is not surprising that Luther should have contended so strongly against this very matter, and this is not, by any means, confined to Luther either.” (Dr.Martin Lloyd Jones in ‘What is an evangelical?’ The Banner of Truth Trust 1992, reprinted from Knowing the times.)


#2

[quote=Catholicfriend]The trouble is that they have added Aristotelian philosophy on to their belief in the Bible, and that ultimately they are interpreting the Bible in terms of Aristotelian philosophy.
[/quote]

On the contrary, Luther removed philosophy from the Bible.
He removed the Book of Wisdom which contains an ingenious synthesis of Greek Philosophy and Hebrew Wisdom.

But even after Luther’s purge, there remains undeniable proof in the Bible that philosophy is perfectly suitable for a preacher:

Philosophy was a fact of life throughout Biblical times. Look at Paul’s speech to the Athenians starting at Acts 17:16. He knew exactly whom he was dealing with, and was obviously familiar with their literature.

Moses, who was of the noble class, was educated in Egypt, which included a classical education in philosophy. Take a look at Acts 7:22: “So Moses was taught all the wisdom of the Egyptians and became a man with power both in his speech and in his actions.”

There is a difference between the protestant and Catholic world views. Protestants view theology through much more of an existential human decision here and now, to turn your life away from past ways and embrace a personal relationship. There is great truth in this view, and I have profited much from it. But Catholics see that the truth of this existential decision is something worth thinking about, seeing it’s dramatic pattern across history, working out its logical implications and consequences. There is great truth in our approach, too. It is validated when Mary, after seeing the miracles surrounding the birth of the child Jesus, “pondered these things in her heart.” As Catholics, we receive what is revealed, and then we think about it deeply.


#3

Hey Catholicfriend:

Welcome!

Theology is faith seeking understanding.

Faith is the prerequisite to any theology…but for this to be on even keel, sound philosophical methods need to be applied. Like that quote of your Dr.:

"And i quote Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones, an evangelical Calvinistic Methodist: “Philosophy has always been the cause of the church going astray.”

Did it ever occur to you that what she’s saying is A PHILOSOPHICAL OPINION? To be fair, apply the same principle to her own assumptions.

Secondly, the heresies are philosophies that took a nugget of truth from orthodox faith and peddled that as the complete be all and end all of theology. It is when the philosopher tries to split a paradox and take half of it as all truth. Revisit the ff heresies: Arian, Nestorian, Monophysites for starters. To thresh out what is false thinking pertaining to the gospels, philosophy must be employed. By the way, Calvin couldn’t widen his mind enough to fit in free will in his idea of predestination. That is his philosophy.

Thirdly, I recommend Fides et Ratio (Faith and Reason) of the late Pope John Paul II and Theology and Sanity by Frank Sheed. It will help organize your thoughts to where Reason being a faculty that God gave man has its proper and noble use cannot be trashed but rather utilized to its greatest potential: complete and utter satisfaction and joy of beholding the ultimate and absolute reality which is noneother than God. So we use theology for the mind to glorify God as much as we use the heart and all of its passion to glorify God.

Stick around!

in XT.


#4

Hi Cath__,

More than anyone I can think of, St. Thomas Aquinas believed in philosophy as the “handmaid of theology”. Theology is impossible without philosophy. How could you understand the concepts of three persons in one nature without the philosophical concepts of persons and nature? When talking about the Eucharist, how could you understand the concepts of substance and accident without philosophy? Without philosophy there is no structure for studying theology.

We can go astray, even without philosophy, as is proven by the mutitple bible-alone-based sects. The Christian philosopher studies in the light of faith. At every crossroads he/she makes a reality check with the tenets of our faith.

Verbum


#5

[quote=adnauseum]On the contrary, Luther removed philosophy from the Bible.
He removed the Book of Wisdom which contains an ingenious synthesis of Greek Philosophy and Hebrew Wisdom.

But even after Luther’s purge, there remains undeniable proof in the Bible that philosophy is perfectly suitable for a preacher:

Philosophy was a fact of life throughout Biblical times. Look at Paul’s speech to the Athenians starting at Acts 17:16. He knew exactly whom he was dealing with, and was obviously familiar with their literature.

Moses, who was of the noble class, was educated in Egypt, which included a classical education in philosophy. Take a look at Acts 7:22: “So Moses was taught all the wisdom of the Egyptians and became a man with power both in his speech and in his actions.”

There is a difference between the protestant and Catholic world views. Protestants view theology through much more of an existential human decision here and now, to turn your life away from past ways and embrace a personal relationship. There is great truth in this view, and I have profited much from it. But Catholics see that the truth of this existential decision is something worth thinking about, seeing it’s dramatic pattern across history, working out its logical implications and consequences. There is great truth in our approach, too. It is validated when Mary, after seeing the miracles surrounding the birth of the child Jesus, “pondered these things in her heart.” As Catholics, we receive what is revealed, and then we think about it deeply.
[/quote]

Hey Adnaseum. What i wrote about the Cathechism, isn’t that true? is that in the Bible? No i don’t think so, and that’s in your Cathechism! You can’t go around and say that you are bible believers, if you’re not basing it upon what the Bible really says. That is heresy. You can’t teach what is not said in the Bible, and think you get away with it by cover it up with philosophical ideas. Sorry, but it’s what i think´, and believe.
Catholicfriend :thumbsup:

“See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ”. (Paul in Col.2:8)


#6

,

[quote=AquinasXVI]Hey Catholicfriend:

Welcome!

Theology is faith seeking understanding.

Faith is the prerequisite to any theology…but for this to be on even keel, sound philosophical methods need to be applied. Like that quote of your Dr.:

"And i quote Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones, an evangelical Calvinistic Methodist: “Philosophy has always been the cause of the church going astray.”

Did it ever occur to you that what she’s saying is A PHILOSOPHICAL OPINION? To be fair, apply the same principle to her own assumptions.

Hello Aquinas, as i am saying, you can’t go around cover up the evangel with philosophical ideas, that’s heresy if you’re saying things that’s not in the Bible!. If you are what you’re saying you are: Bible believers. I believe the Word, Gods Word(Christ is the Incarnate Word) created the church, not the other way around. Do you really believe that Christ built his church, or not?! Take one thing; in your cathechism it says that Christ is offered over and over again in the Eucharist…But the Word of God, Scriptures(i know that you differentiate between them) is saying in Hebr.9:25 that he is not offered repeatedly, once for all he sacrificed himself to put away sin. And in Col.2:8 Paul is saying that you should; ‘see to that you do not be captive in philosophy and empty deceit’ according to human traditions’ …Sorry that is what i believe and think.
Catholicfriend :thumbsup:

Secondly, the heresies are philosophies that took a nugget of truth from orthodox faith and peddled that as the complete be all and end all of theology. It is when the philosopher tries to split a paradox and take half of it as all truth. Revisit the ff heresies: Arian, Nestorian, Monophysites for starters. To thresh out what is false thinking pertaining to the gospels, philosophy must be employed. By the way, Calvin couldn’t widen his mind enough to fit in free will in his idea of predestination. That is his philosophy.

Thirdly, I recommend Fides et Ratio (Faith and Reason) of the late Pope John Paul II and Theology and Sanity by Frank Sheed. It will help organize your thoughts to where Reason being a faculty that God gave man has its proper and noble use cannot be trashed but rather utilized to its greatest potential: complete and utter satisfaction and joy of beholding the ultimate and absolute reality which is noneother than God. So we use theology for the mind to glorify God as much as we use the heart and all of its passion to glorify God.

Stick around!

in XT.
[/quote]


#7

[quote=Catholicfriend]! You can’t go around and say that you are bible believers, if you’re not basing it upon what the Bible really says. That is heresy. ---------------------------------
"(Paul in Col.2:8)
[/quote]

No, Catholicfriend, what adnauseum says in correct and is not heresy…what you are saying is in fact sola scriptura and is heresy… that we can only believe what is in the bible and nothing else. We believe in the bible *and * in the teachings handed down from the first days of Christianity, long before the Bible was compliled.


#8

[quote=Catholicfriend],
[/quote]

You can’t cover up the truth behind your philosophical ideas.
Come on, ‘See to it that no one takes you captive’ Col.2:8.
God bless
Catholicfriend :thumbsup:


#9

[quote=Catilieth]No, Catholicfriend, what adnauseum says in correct and is not heresy…what you are saying is in fact sola scriptura and is heresy… that we can only believe what is in the bible and nothing else. We believe in the bible and in the teachings handed down from the first days of Christianity, long before the Bible was compliled.
[/quote]

Sorry , but read Revelations 22:18-19. You are not allowed to add or take away anything from Gods written Word. I am not a heretic , i’m just saying what God says in His Word.
Are you really wre of what you’re saying?!
Sorry, but the truth is hard to hear sometimes!
God bless
Catholicfriend :thumbsup:


#10

[quote=Catholicfriend]Sorry , but read Revelations 22:18-19. You are not allowed to add or take away anything from Gods written Word. I am not a heretic , i’m just saying what God says in His Word.
Are you really wre of what you’re saying?!
Sorry, but the truth is hard to hear sometimes!
God bless
Catholicfriend :thumbsup:
[/quote]

Hello and welcome.

The Protestants removed 7 books from the Bible.

We are very aware of what we’re saying.

I would not call you a heretic.

There is so much more to the Bible than what you’re quoting. Wow. It would (and probably has) take many, many threads to cover what we believe and why. All very Biblical.

Please remember. If you try to interpret the Bible by yourself with no help in understanding the history, the traditions in the Bible, and what they all mean in context with one another then you could very well have a different meaning for each person.

Saying,
“Sorry, but the truth is hard to hear sometimes!” is like a slap in the face. Please rethink it.


#11

[quote=Catholicfriend]Sorry , but read Revelations 22:18-19. You are not allowed to add or take away anything from Gods written Word. I am not a heretic , i’m just saying what God says in His Word.
Are you really wre of what you’re saying?!
Sorry, but the truth is hard to hear sometimes!
God bless
Catholicfriend :thumbsup:
[/quote]

Do you guy’s really believe what God has said in his Word through the history to his people, that He created a people for himself through his Word to them. Isnt’t the commandments the Word of God?! And isn’t Christ the fulfillment of the Law?!
Sorry… you’re way out there…
God bless
Catholicfriend :thumbsup:


#12

[quote=Catholicfriend]Do you guy’s really believe what God has said in his Word through the history to his people, that He created a people for himself through his Word to them. Isnt’t the commandments the Word of God?! And isn’t Christ the fulfillment of the Law?!
Sorry… you’re way out there…
God bless
Catholicfriend :thumbsup:
[/quote]

What has anyone here said that contradicts this?


#13

[quote=SusanL]Hello and welcome.

The Protestants removed 7 books from the Bible.

We are very aware of what we’re saying.

I would not call you a heretic.

There is so much more to the Bible than what you’re quoting. Wow. It would (and probably has) take many, many threads to cover what we believe and why. All very Biblical.

Please remember. If you try to interpret the Bible by yourself with no help in understanding the history, the traditions in the Bible, and what they all mean in context with one another then you could very well have a different meaning for each person.

Saying,
“Sorry, but the truth is hard to hear sometimes!” is like a slap in the face. Please rethink it.
[/quote]

Ok, sorry for my harsh words, but as i have studied your wiew on this matters, i have discovered that seeing to the Apostolic succession as the only countible expression for Traditional teaching for church or liturgy, is not very convincing! Look in: Jude v1-3. That’s all saints!, not just the one’s you’re talking about.
I know that the church and synagoge went different ways early on, in the first century. But that is a different wiew on canonization of Scriptures. I believe those seven books is a part of the Word. But that’s wiewing canonization.
God bless
Catholicfriend :thumbsup:


#14

[quote=SusanL]What has anyone here said that contradicts this?
[/quote]

You say that the Church is the creator of the Bible, and not the other way around. I believe that the Word is the Creator of the Church.
Catholicfriend :thumbsup:


#15

[quote=Catholicfriend]You say that the Church is the creator of the Bible, and not the other way around. I believe that the Word is the Creator of the Church.
Catholicfriend :thumbsup:
[/quote]

Christ did build his Church, and continues to do just that!


#16

This is a related thread from the section Moral Theology

Divorce of Fath & Reasonforums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=74347


#17

Well, Catholicfriend, you have me totally confused. :o

I went back and read your other posts and you say that you’re on the verge of converting to Catholicism. I thought you were going to be another Protestant coming to bash us around a little bit. :frowning:

I am a convert from the Methodist Church. Is this thing with apostolic succession holding you back so far? Is there more?

I had several issues before I became convinced. It’s a loooong process.

Take it a step at a time and remember to pray long and hard about it. You sound like someone who once convinced becomes a diehard. (but it takes a while to convince doesn’t it? :wink: ) Me, too.

I haven’t got my Bible handy so I can’t look up the scripture you quoted. I’ll have to check later.

You know, if you need to talk over anything that’s bothering you, please feel free to private message me. I won’t have all the answers but maybe we can find them together.

May God bless you.

Sue


#18

[quote=Catholicfriend]You say that the Church is the creator of the Bible, and not the other way around. I believe that the Word is the Creator of the Church.
Catholicfriend :thumbsup:
[/quote]

Actually the Church is the one that decided which books were inspired by the Holy Spirit. You’re right. The Word is the Creator of the Church because the Word is one person: Jesus.


#19

[quote=SusanL]Well, Catholicfriend, you have me totally confused. :o

I went back and read your other posts and you say that you’re on the verge of converting to Catholicism. I thought you were going to be another Protestant coming to bash us around a little bit. :frowning:

I am a convert from the Methodist Church. Is this thing with apostolic succession holding you back so far? Is there more?

I had several issues before I became convinced. It’s a loooong process.

Take it a step at a time and remember to pray long and hard about it. You sound like someone who once convinced becomes a diehard. (but it takes a while to convince doesn’t it? :wink: ) Me, too.

I haven’t got my Bible handy so I can’t look up the scripture you quoted. I’ll have to check later.

You know, if you need to talk over anything that’s bothering you, please feel free to private message me. I won’t have all the answers but maybe we can find them together.

May God bless you.

Sue
[/quote]

Well Sue, i thought that i was on the verge of converting. But i’m no longer sure, since i have discovered those things in the cathechism. And i’m not buying it, it clearly contradicts what God has written in His Word. And the Pope(successors) is not the vicar(s) of Christ, the whole Apostolic succession idea is just philosophical ideas from the fourth century. Man made traditions(political control for Rome) for bringing forth ones own political ideas. Sorry.
God bless
Catholifriend :thumbsup:


#20

[quote=Catholicfriend]Hey Adnaseum. What i wrote about the Cathechism, isn’t that true? is that in the Bible? No i don’t think so, and that’s in your Cathechism! You can’t go around and say that you are bible believers, if you’re not basing it upon what the Bible really says. That is heresy. You can’t teach what is not said in the Bible, and think you get away with it by cover it up with philosophical ideas. Sorry, but it’s what i think´, and believe.
Catholicfriend :thumbsup:

“See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ”. (Paul in Col.2:8)
[/quote]

Obiously you don’t read footnotes too well. The Catechism is thoroughly footnoted to the Bible.

If you are taking the position that the only things we can know and discuss about faith have to be within the Bible - better known as sola scriptura, then I would invite you to show us where in the Bible sola scriptura is set out.


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